Redhouse - that is not how it has been interpreted.

The obvious solution is to re-write it, whether that meant explicitly protecting individual rights to carry guns and regulation of said guns, or the anti-gun proposals of a far more restrictive admendment... That is irrelevant - the political process has failed; the American constitution can not be amdended for practical reasons and thus power has been taken from the people and given to the supreme court.

They have the power to interpret the words however they wish. (with only the integrity of the court at stake)

Democracy as imagined by the founders this is not.

What maniac said. Thanks.

Orathaic makes a good point about amendments.
And there is not a political consensus in this control for such an interpretation, redhouse. The American people believe in the civil right of self-protection through individual weapon ownership.

The American people believes evolution is just a theory.

"teachers bearing guns WORKS. just take a look at Israel."

what does this mean, ILN? do you have a source? i don't think teachers outside of the west bank carry guns.

also, the myth about switzerland and israel having more guns but less gun violence is just a myth. both countries have much tighter gun control laws than the states and are moving in a direction of more control.

lets jsut be VERY clear, that Violent crimes per capita are higher in Europe than in America. That is a fact, and it is not even CLOSE, with UK leading the way by a LOT,

We are focusing on gun deaths/crimes, but violent crimes in general, we are FAR below Europe, inculding UK, Germany, Netherlands, France, Spain and Italy. All these 'gun safe' areas you guys keep talking about how Americans have not evolved, yet, you guys are more violent than us (according to these stats from 2008) than we ever are.

So, point to the guns, sure, but lets not act like Europe is some freaking Utopia. People who want to be violent, are going to do it, regardless of whatever laws are in place.

@stressed - a source for your point would be good. Before i even see it, i would hope its not one of these reports that links all violent crime together so that killing 40people in one incident = 1 crime, breaking someone's nose in bar fight = 1 crime. If we are discussing gun law, lets keep the stats to gun crime.

is rape a violent crime? Is robbery at weapon point a violent crime?

Assault and battery is a violent crime, although I do agree that a fist fight shouldbe put in as such. Example, Man 1 wants to fight Man B, who does not want to fight. Man A beats his ass anyways. that is a violent crime.

http://www.cepr.org/meets/wkcn/9/979/papers/Buonnano_etal.pdf

There is plenty of other sites, but I found that one for the sake of finding one.

I saw an article in a UK paper, forget which one, but they had it at almsot 300% higher nowin UK than US, for violent crimes.

In that artilce they wanted to blame alcohol for it, which I found odd.

you know Mainiac, we can run around in circles on this, but the USSC has already ruled on the 2nd amendment enough times, that we all know, nothing short of a constituional amendment will change anything, and that is not going to happen anytime soon.

there are lots of other factors besides guns involved in this, since the guns have been around forever, there are cultural issues involved, such as the heavy dose of violent games from early childhood, just to name one.

Sure, more children can make a distinction between the game and reality. A few cant,a nd this is what we get.

"there are lots of other factors besides guns involved in this, since the guns have been around forever, there are cultural issues involved, such as the heavy dose of violent games from early childhood, just to name one. "

Yeah blame these. God forbid you blame the existence of real guns when you can blame the existence of fictitious computer game guns.

redhouse, again, regardless of how I feel, you are not AMerican, and you dont know hos delicate this issue is in America.

Sure, lets put some gun laws in AMerica, Oh wait, we have done this lots. in DC. CVioletn crimes rose on average, 78%
Chicago, yes, also rose over 70%.

So, again, Gun laws are in place in some places, and are NOT working. Try again.

Wow, stressedlines, even polar bears can tell the difference between play and hunting...

It is built into mammals, great photos of hungry polar bears playing with huskie pups.

I'm pretty sure even adults can tell the difference between play fighting and real fighting, you get very behaviours... You have a point, there are other factors at play.

Except I would suspect population, and poverty are much bigger than violent games.
American football is among the violent of games that is played, (or similarily rugby in Europe) Look at the actual rate of violent crime over time in the US, and ask yourself this one question - is there a coorelation between the violent crime rate and the violent computer game rate.

Orthaic. you didnt listen to a word I said. I specifically said "most kids know the difference between...." You cherry picked that one . Sure, I think most kids know when they turn that game off, the game is over. Do I think all kids do? Obviously NOT.

Our violent crime is concentrated in very specific areas.

http://www.neighborhoodscout.com/neighborhoods/crime-rates/top100dangerous/

I will do us all a favor, and check out thegun laws for those areas when I get a chance. that is the top 100

Orthaic, you would be wrong on the poverty part, as I have proven before. Appalchia is one of the most povery stricken areas of America, and has one of the lowest violent crime rates in America.

:@stressedline - "is rape a violent crime? Is robbery at weapon point a violent crime?" Answer - Yes. If the US have been able to reduce overall violent crime per capita and are now at lower level than Europe and the UK, then we have something to learn from you. But if gun-related homocides in the US are running at 2.98/100,000 people in the US and 0.25/100,000 people in the UK; then I'd say you shouldn't blinker yourself into hiding from that info.

I'm fully aware that there are cultural issues at play, but I can think of a dozen or so issues where the culture of a nation can change. Think of how race, gender, class issues have changed over time. All it needs is for people to want change and they can effect change.

With regards to the law - laws are made by people and can be changed by people if they so wish. I've never understood the arguement that because a law was written so long ago that people of today can's change it. We bring in new laws or updated laws all the time. Even the law the gun-lobby refer to was an 'amendment'. Lets debate the issue.

I note no pro-gun lobbyist has answered my question as to how many deaths would make them re-consider their view.

i think crime in general is linked to poverty, but not violent crime Rpaign someoen because you are poor is not a logical thought process

maniac, i am more playing devils advocate, and mostly for the non Americans here.

Non Americans without a doubt do not udnerstand how delicate this issue is here, They cant comprehend it the same was we do here, regardless of which side of the fence we are all on.

An issue is as delicate as you make it, Stressedlines.

"God forbid you blame the existence of real guns when you can blame the existence of fictitious computer game guns."

The physical existence of guns cannot be undone. That genie has been out of the bottle for many many centuries now, unfortunately.

Further, computer games are not "fictitious," they're very real, and the consequences of participating in literally millions of virtual reality violent acts is becoming more and more ominous. Research is uncovering that these games interact with a portion of the brain in which there is no "reality v. fantasy," and this fact is even more pronounced in children.

Every time something like this happens there is a similar response, and despite the fact that I disagree with the response, I do understand it. There are a myriad of factors at play in these incidents, and the one that very few want to discuss is the prevalence of the perpetrators of these horrific acts being on SSRI drugs.

I can say with near CERTAINTY that it will come out in time that the killer in this latest incident was on SSRI drugs. One is hard pressed to find a single "mass killing" in which the killer(s) aren't on these very dangerous drugs. Yet, despite this fact, the tool that they used, and not the catalyst, is being demonized. Yes, if they didn't have ready access to the gun they might not have been able to unleash such destruction of innocent lives. But, that does nothing to diminish the underlying CAUSE of their murderous rage.

and my point is, the laws didnt help in the areas they put them into place, it simply allowed the criminals to attack the honest without fear of retirubtion.

Like taking away the sheep dog from the sheep. The wolves are having a field day.

redhouse, again. You are dutch. I dont expect you to really understand the consequences for handling this wrong here. A knee jerk reaction from Obama here, could have dire results.

@stresslines: you said "Orthaic. you didnt listen to a word I said. I specifically said "most kids know the difference between...." "

Actually, you didn't say most. you said: 'Sure, more children can make a distinction between the game and reality. A few cant,a nd this is what we get. '

and you're still making a pretty big claim that a few can't.

The problem is, unfortunately, that it is not "knee jerk reaction," it is a very calculated reaction. Remember the words of Obama's former Chief of Staff, Rahm Emanuel, "never let a good crisis go to waste..."

@Stressed
"A knee jerk reaction from Obama here, could have dire results."
What does that even mean? He's President, he should move cautiously and with sensitivity to all these issues. What are you thinking? That he's invading Texas tomorrow to get out all the guns?

Also, may I remind you that this is a European thread, started by a European person citing a European news agency? Thanks.

obama is not going to let this go, without trying to move his agenda forward. I promise you that.

Redhouse, and again, I am explainingto Europeans, you are talking about something you do not fully understand.

Children died, I understand that, and feel terrible. I have a 6 yar old son, TRUST ME, I hugged him closer that day that I usually do. I own guns, always have. I am not dismissing their deaths, I am a parent of a 6 year old and feel their pain exact. I cant imagine their grief.

If something can be done, I agree, lets do it. However, lets be sure we are doing it the right way, and from all angles.

"obama is not going to let this go, without trying to move his agenda forward. I promise you that. "

Shocking! Who does he think he is, the President?!

@stressedlines - you can't imagine their grief, but do you suggest something be done, or merely that the US culture of guns continue as it has for decades?

I'm not saying ban guns, because that's not going to happen today.

I'm saying join the fight to ban guns.

Hes let it go for long enough. His agenda was to appease gun nuts like you. 7 massacres later the situation is untenable.

@Orathaic - banning guns is not going to happen overnight - what the US needs is a referendum bill which will take things like gun control out of party politics. You then hold referendum after referendum each time tightening the law by degrees and ask for public support. Overtime, this approach will change the law and the culture of gun-ownership.