For the sake of avoiding being chainsawed,

i move mars to spain, brest to MAO and paris to gascony.
Further i try to convince england to DMZ EC, and germany that he can have belgium on condition that he not enter burgundy (making tentative agreements/alliances with both)

Army gascony can cover brest if England is in EC, paris if germany is in Bur, and mars if italy is in piedmont.

I talk to austria about taking venice, and my eternal gratitude.

Work to prevent English-Germany ganing up will begin in fall, depending on heir moves... I will of course have two builds, (possibly losing paris, mars and brest...) but defending one of these with gascony.

I will promise whoever has stabbed (by entering bur/EC) that they will get nothing! italy will be handed mars and i will defend agaisnt them (England/Germany) to the bitter end... sacrificing everything to italy, and leaving him a super power... i then probably go and take portugal with my fleet and bounce myself out of marseilles...

I'm not very experienced, but it sounds like it wouldn't be too hard to get Austria attacking Italy.

yeah, like said above

By assuming everybody knows Italy is attacking you, surely then England and Germany would see you as easy pickings. How would you prevent an EG alliance?

Relations with England are more important than Germany, since you need your fleets in the South. If Italy forfeits the strategic surprise, then bounce him from Piedmont in the spring, then move your army to burgundy in the fall. Brest should move to Mao (and then Spain, and paris can move to Pic to prevent germany from gaining belgium. I would possibly promise England Belgium to give him a reason to support
you. Getting only one build sucks, but with fleets in the south Italy's attack should be halted (plus you should get Portugal in the next round), and Italy will find it hard to expand while risking a Turkish or Austrian attack from the east.

I would not trust fighting Italy to countering it with a Western Triple. Western Triple's are very difficult to form. England is imperative to ally with because without your fleets you're at England's mercy. Germany you can more easily defend against.

And what happens if Italy has you completely duped and actually attacks Austria, while England moves into EC and Germany to Burgundy?

No power can survive a 3-on-1 attack. But if England moves to the EC then you defend Brest with Mao. You defend Paris with Pic, and your Marseilles army is in Piedmont, so Italy cannot take Marseilles.

You get no builds and await destruction.

Ask Germany for a bounce in Burgundy, tell England you arranged a bounce with Germany in Burgundy to secure them Belgium.

Mar->Bur (bounce)
Par-> Gas
Bre -> MAO

As long as England doesnt go to EC, you have two builds for sure, and even if they do, you probably still get two builds since a wide open Belgium is tough to pass up for ENG

^That seems like the best suggestion. I'd go further than asking for the bounce, though -- I'd tell him I'm moving there regardless and to bounce me if he doesn't want me there. If you get in, move back to Marseilles to cover against Piedmont if necessary, and if not then use it to get an ally (probably England here) by supporting a move to Belgium.

I'm assuming that the "declaration of war" is opening of Ven-Pie, Nap-Tyh.

After that, Germany and England would be unlikely to come after me because I'd already be working out a Western Triple. The great thing about a Western Triple is that you can convert it to a two-party alliance at any time, and there's always a reason that it's better for England and Germany to ally with France and against each other. So when Italy comes after me, I tell G/E that it only makes my life easier because, as they know, I was going after Italy from the beginning. I'd lobby Austria for Tri-Ven, but Italy won't usually open that way unless he's really sure that Austria has his back.

If I'm worried about E/G/I (like Putin says, 3-on-1 is always the end of the line), then I would work to get a juggernaut. I'd promise Russia support in the north and assistance in his eventual stab of Turkey, and encourage him to open strong in the north. I would remind Turkey that Russia is guaranteed to stab him, and that Italy's western move will give him a free hand in the Med. If I make my case, E/G will probably have to pull back from an attack on me to deal with that, and Italy may decide that he's better off getting a piece of Austria.

A/T or A/R is bad news; both alliances keep Russia busy in the south, and give him a strong motivation for staying peaceful with E/G.

Very interesting ideas. I will go through them all, trying to determine the best one.

But let me first clarify the scenario, since some of you may have misunderstood. It is Spring 1901, before any moves are made. So you do not yet know that Italy is going for Piedmont. All you know is that he's your eternal enemy. Perhaps he's moving Rom-Tus, Ven Holds, Nap-Tyr.

@ora: That sounds already quite desperate. If I were Germany, and I knew you were going to leave Burgundy open like that, I would have a hard time resisting the temptation. The plan of "sacrificing everything to Italy" fails when Germany is in Burgundy, and asks Italy for support to Marseilles. Plus, moving to Burgundy increases my (Gemany's) chances of getting Belgium.

@pithon: I think it would be hard. if Italy commits to fight France, a juggernaut may form, and Austria will have his own problems.

@gigantor: that's exactly the problem. But what would your solution be?

@Putin/uclabb, both are very viable options. But you seem to disagree on who the best ally would be. Is it Germany or England. I think the choice should be determined not be who can aid you the most, but who has the least reason to stab you. I like the Par-Gas opening. It's versatile, and relatively risk-free.

@Patoralan, my initial idea was pretty much along your lines. However, if Russia is opening North, Germany and England have good reason to ally. Moreover, since you are busy fighting Italy, a EG alliance would look very good. But I completely agree that Turkey is your best friend.

As for myself, I would probably be opening Bre-Mao, Par-Gas, Mar-Bur too. I would strive to create a juggernaut (that should be doable, since the south will fall in their hands practically guaranteed). I would promise Russia that, when he gets in trouble in the North, and I have get ris of the Italian menace, I will stab EG to help him out.

So far I agree with Pastoralan. But what I would do is to encourage Turkey to do an early stab on Russia, let's say fall 1902. That'll shake things up pretty badly in the North, and perhaps this gets England and Germany fighting. Russia will be desperate for an ally, so he will offer almost anything to get one of them to stab.

At that point, I would propose to England the idea of a Anglo-French-Turkish draw. England stabs Germany, helped by Russia, thus eliminating his biggest rival. Turkey, who has solid control of the mediterranean by now, will probably defeat Austria. Then England has to rush to Stp. To finish our stalemate line.

@Putin
I think you could get two builds instead of one if MAO went to Portugal and Marseilles went to Spain. If Italy isn't Piedmont yet, you know he cant take Marseilles. and unless he is a complete fool (he may be, he posted publicly,) he'll try to get Tunis, so you don't need to worry about his fleet.

I would probably work rely hard to get Russia and Turkey to form a Juggernaut, gives England and Germany problems on the other side of the board, If Italy wont cooperate with Austria in preventing Turkey and Russia from steamroling the board the Italian problem wont be for long anyways.

Get the easy centers, as in Spa and Por, and then try to get Russia to stab Turkey once the Italian threat have been done.

Now I want to be Italy in a game where basvanopheusden is France.

Why? because you think my solution is bad, or because of the irony of the situation?

Because I want to post "I don't like you. They tell me you always stab your allies, and I don't trust you. I am going to take your centers, and I will not stop until you are dead. This my declaration of war. " in private and global, and see what you really do.

@the hanged man LOLOLOLOLOL

to everyone else this is what i would do and depending on how convincing you are then it might work.

first thing i would do before i even entered any moves would be to yell to italy on the global chat BRING IT ON...just because it would be entertaining. then i would in my very convincing manner talk to both germany and england about being allies and knowing that one of them would want to stab me in the future i would support them against each other back and forth to buy me some time till i can get a build or 2 and work on italy with either austria or turkey or possibly both. and if that worked then i would consider myself extremely lucky and stab one ally with support against them with the other ally to advance further..considering this is all hypothetical it could work even though its not very likely and i would most likely hit draw after the first year just to see what happend. if all else fails then take por and spain and just support hold both units because england/germany and italy will both be trying to get your lands and wont be able to because they wont support each other being enemies so you should be able to hold long enough to get the draw....i did that in a game before and i was surprised to say it actually worked. once i find the game on my profile i will post the game id if anyone is interested to see

gameID=44657

@Hanged man, no matter how funny it is, I really hope it doesn't happen.

I hope that the discussion in this thread leads to a final decision on the best strategy. So if it happens, I'll know what to do.

@maltizok, that's hardly a coherent strategy. Also in that game, I fail to understand why the larger powers allowed you to survive. If I were playing Turkey or England, I would never have drawn that game.

i know which is why i thought it was amazing that i survived and got included in the draw. and you said to post what you would do not that it was a good strategy but thats what i would do.

I'm not trying to find out what every player would do, but what the best strategy is.

So, suppose you play another game, with better players, you are again France, and Italy decides to attack you again. Then what do you do?

fight to the inevitable death. france is one of those powers that without strong allies your pretty much screwd

Well, offering oneself to an opposing power while doing everything one can to harm Italy is always an interesting and viable tactic. After all, no Italy wants to see England armed to the teeth sailing through the Straight of Gibraltar.

And, even if France is beset by all three of her neighbors, she can put up a few years of defense. The entire time would probably be spent telling Russia to attack England, Turkey to attack Italy, and Austria to attack Germany.
If even one of them comes to French aid, then suddenly it becomes a question of which of the two remaining powers she should offer her centers to and which to fight to the bitter end. Meanwhile she ought sowing seeds of discord among everyone else.
Hopefully France would have been doing that the entire time, of course.

Of course, everything depends on the players themselves. A single strategy that is 'best' in one game can be inherently flawed in another, because of the responsiveness of other players, the other players' agendas, etc.