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A place to discuss topics/games with other webDiplomacy players.
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Demos (496 D)
13 Dec 12 UTC
"One Hell of a Game" gameID=106213 Epic World Game
200 to join this World Game. Please do check it out and join if you want a great world game.
0 replies
Open
philcore (317 D(S))
12 Dec 12 UTC
Mods: please unpause game 89114
http://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=89114#gamePanel
5 replies
Open
Yonni (136 D(S))
11 Dec 12 UTC
Top 5 songs of the year.
Care to share?
61 replies
Open
When to draw: gameID=103187
I am curious as to what others on Webdip think proper End of Game etiquette is. I have always thought that if a grand alliance succeeds in drawing up a stalemate line to stop one's solo (or if it is painfully clear that a line will be drawn), that was the proper finale to the game as no one can progress past. As an example, take a look at this game where a stalemate line has been drawn yet the one closest to a, now impossible, solo refuses to draw.
5 replies
Open
krellin (80 DX)
11 Dec 12 UTC
The Zombie Crossover Game
Cross your favorite Movie and/or story with the Zombie genre and give us the result.

Star Wars meets Zombie: Darth Vader dies in Luke Skywalker’s arms, resurrects to dine on Luke’s hand, and together Father and Son finally rule the universe forever!
16 replies
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Putin33 (111 D)
12 Dec 12 UTC
Bradford beats Arsenal
LOLOLOLOL

http://news.yahoo.com/1-soccer-arsenal-suffer-shootout-cup-defeat-bradford-223633905--sow.html
6 replies
Open
bo_sox48 (5202 DMod(G))
12 Dec 12 UTC
Page 12222012
When webDip reaches this page in the forums, the world will end. #mayanswerewrong
4 replies
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Thucydides (864 D(B))
12 Dec 12 UTC
RIP Ravi Shankar
In other news, fuck Capt. Amadou Sanogo's meddling ass.
0 replies
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Fantasy Football
Every had a superior team that had a off week and you were eliminated from the playoffs?
Sure happened to me today
35 replies
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Bitemenow10 (100 D)
11 Dec 12 UTC
page 1000 get
you know what to dew!
0 replies
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krellin (80 DX)
11 Dec 12 UTC
Need Advise...
Please read on for details:
31 replies
Open
Rommeltastic (1106 D(B))
08 Dec 12 UTC
The CD challenge.
I hate when people go Civil Disorder, so...
16 replies
Open
dubmdell (556 D)
10 Dec 12 UTC
Mods. Email. Quick!
This is the mod signal. Please check the email! Only one minute to go!
18 replies
Open
erist (228 D(B))
08 Dec 12 UTC
Political Compass
If I'm going to start arguing with you people, I need to at least know a general idea of where people are at in terms of their political beliefs.
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Thucydides (864 D(B))
11 Dec 12 UTC
Fasces, you deny that you are racist, I have no doubt of that.

But would you please care to write for a us your opinion on race in general, and the European race in particular, in no less than 500 words? I think it would be fairly instructive. Or don't. But in that case, it once begs the question - why wouldn't you tell us what you think of race?

In the interest of fairness I'll start:


“Race: A social construct”

Race generally refers to the genetic phenotypic heritage of an individual, usually correlated to a geographic area. In the ancient past, race varied gradually through space, such that seeing an individual who looked much different from yourself would have been rare, compared to today. But as interaction accelerated, humans began to define themselves, phenotypically, in opposition to others. These phenotypic differences, of course, came along with cultural differences, which were conflated with the phenotypic differences.

Over time, as Europe came to dominate the world, the Eurocentric view that the white, European races were superior to others came into common parlance. Whites accepted the new racism easily enough, and the ideas were also institutionalized and forced into the minds of the oppressed (an ongoing process now referred to as “the colonization of the mind”). “Scientists,” who were in fact actually just racist hacks, set about quantifying the concrete differences among races, measuring skull sizes, nose widths, and so on. They invented ridiculous terminology like “Negroid” and “Mongoloid” to use as jargon in their emerging field of social Darwinism (the idea that Darwin’s ideas on natural selection could explain the social positions of the various races worldwide).

It was in this period, also, that today’s “races” were first conceived. It was in these times that the terms “white” and “black” and “colored,” still so often heard around the world today, came to take on their modern meanings. This occurred as people of certain phenotypic heritages became dissociated from their specific geographical homeland as nascent globalization spread people all over the world. The perfect example is in the New World, where specific geographic origins mattered far less than “black” and “white.”

In order to justify their grievous exploitation of non-white people, white people made up stories about how inferior the others were, and told them to themselves. A language of inferiority and superiority was used. You might have even heard a nineteenth century bigot such as Henry Morton Stanley uttering words like, “Our race has many superior qualities, compared with other races.” And indeed he truly believed his words.

It was not until the late 20th century that this ridiculous rhetoric at last began to come to an end. As the moral arguments of the civil rights movements of the 1960s penetrated even white consciousness, the old-style, naked racism could no longer be acceptable. This is the time when it became a bad thing to be racist, in the eyes of society. But racists were still there, from every color and creed. Their language was new, however. They began to speak of innate differences between cultures in their effectiveness or morality. They began to speak of innate differences in their physical or mental abilities. No, the racism was not gone; it had merely taken a new form.

At last, however, scientific studies debunked once and for all the old notion that the races were biological categories any more significant than that of hair color. Races had at one time been thought of as a kind of subspecies, but modern science showed that such categorizations are actually meaningless outside of a social setting, like a census form.

It was a decisive and meaningful moment in the history of race, because it meant that fact was now on the side of those who had long maintained that the perceived differences between people were immaterial, and that the similarities far outweighed any appeal to “otherness” that exploiters and bigots may have appealed to in the past.

Of course, the historical legacy of the creation of these categories has meant that “black”, “white” and so on, although unfounded in biology, are now all too real. There is still racism based on these old principles. Even today, you may hear assholes talking about why it is prudent to be careful around black people, statistically more likely to commit crimes as they are. So, racism is certainly not dead, although race as a biological concept absolutely is.
Fasces349 (0 DX)
11 Dec 12 UTC
Once again Ghug it is clear that you actually haven't read my arguments as you are only really pointing to one post I made despite me posting more then a dozen here and even more if you look at past debates.
Thucydides (864 D(B))
11 Dec 12 UTC
We were all fools at age 15, but not all of us were fascists.
Thucydides (864 D(B))
11 Dec 12 UTC
Though the two are closely related, it is true.
ulytau (541 D)
11 Dec 12 UTC
"We were all fools at age 15, but not all of us were fascists."

lol
Fasces349 (0 DX)
11 Dec 12 UTC
I'm not an active debater, I am a reactive debater. I don't like writing long messages I like responding to people who disagree with me. Ask me to write a 500 word essay on a topic and I will procrastinate doing it. Write your own 500 word essay and I would be happy to take it a part and tell you were we disagree.

So do I have to write my own 500 word piece or can I just respond to yours?
Putin33 (111 D)
11 Dec 12 UTC
http://95.211.128.12/webdiplomacy/forum.php?threadID=727082#729810

Thucy, read Fasces replies in this thread re:race. It will make you laugh/cry.
Thucydides (864 D(B))
11 Dec 12 UTC
I wrote mine only hoping to get one from you.

Please do not respond to my own 500 word post, it is not meant to be debated. It is simply a statement of my views on race. I would like to hear your views on race presented in a similar format.
Putin33 (111 D)
11 Dec 12 UTC
In particular - this gem on page 6 or 7.

"Well I was more fascist back in grade 8, I supported the holocaust (not entirely, I wasn't anti-semetic but I was in favor of exterminating the other races), I was less in favor of the free market and more just the government regulating the market as back then I believed a central government telling corporations what to do would make the corporations more efficient.
I thought that it was the fascist economic policies of Hitler and Mussolini that saved the world from the great depression, they kinda did but thats not the point.
I supported a huge standing army ready to go to war when need be."
Thucydides (864 D(B))
11 Dec 12 UTC
"Well, Putin, my reaction to the thread you linked me was more to laugh than to cry, which is always nice.

"lol, this isn't the first time I have been called a fascist and wont be the last." -Fasces349, June 8, 2011

GOT THAT RIGHT lol

I remember that, actually. That's why I bristle so much when Fasces still says "Negroid" un-ironically.
Thucydides (864 D(B))
11 Dec 12 UTC
On a more serious note, Fasces, I'm glad to see that you at least publicly, partially, renounce racism.

I would just ask that you think about going all the way. If you have any sympathies with the way you used to think, just try to stamp them out. I think you're experienced enough now to know that it's just wrong.

My first recommendation would be to stop saying Negroid and Mongoloid. People just don't say that. lol
Fasces349 (0 DX)
11 Dec 12 UTC
"http://95.211.128.12/webdiplomacy/forum.php?threadID=727082#729810

Thucy, read Fasces replies in this thread re:race. It will make you laugh/cry."
Putin brings this up a lot, it was me talking about my views when I was 12 years old, however extreme they were (and I have become less and less extreme as time goes on since then).
Frank (100 D)
11 Dec 12 UTC
Fasces makes me a bit embarrassed to have studied economics for so many years. There is no consensus about things like "the free market is a force for good," and I think any decent economist would not frame the debate in such normative terms. However, its good that you're studying economics as its a very interesting field and I think your viewpoints will develop as you move beyond first year courses.
Fasces349 (0 DX)
11 Dec 12 UTC
"I wrote mine only hoping to get one from you.

Please do not respond to my own 500 word post, it is not meant to be debated. It is simply a statement of my views on race. I would like to hear your views on race presented in a similar format."
fair enough, and if sometime in the next week I get the time I will write it, probably tonight.

"On a more serious note, Fasces, I'm glad to see that you at least publicly, partially, renounce racism. "
I renounce racism in the sense of the white supremacist movement or any other racial superiority movements. However, like redhouse, I believe that its not racist to think that there are differences in the races. If that makes me a racist then I am one.

"My first recommendation would be to stop saying Negroid and Mongoloid. People just don't say that. lol"
Until I know of a better terminology to classify them I will continue to say them (it is interesting that the people who dubbed Negroid and Mongoloid also dubbed Caucasoid and yet nobody is bother by me saying Caucasian)
Fasces349 (0 DX)
11 Dec 12 UTC
"Fasces makes me a bit embarrassed to have studied economics for so many years. There is no consensus about things like "the free market is a force for good," and I think any decent economist would not frame the debate in such normative terms.
However, its good that you're studying economics as its a very interesting field and I think your viewpoints will develop as you move beyond first year courses."
The percentage of economists that think markets are good is vastly higher then any other field, in that sense yes there is an almost consensus.
Fasces349 (0 DX)
11 Dec 12 UTC
take note, there is a difference between saying that the free market is generally a force for good and saying we need to have an unregulated absolute free market. I agree with the first statement and not the second.
Frank (100 D)
11 Dec 12 UTC
"The percentage of economists that think markets are good is vastly higher then any other field"
Source? I think most economists study "markets" in some way or another but in my time in school, I never heard econ professors talk about markets as 'good' or 'bad.' The role of an economist is to conduct positive analysis not make normative claims.

Also, you keep trying to pass off your videos and Hayek, etc, as if they represent the entire field of economics, which is not remotely true.
ghug (5068 D(B))
11 Dec 12 UTC
And there you go again, Fasces, oversimplified ad populum arguments and appeals to authority without any of your own ideas or any comprehensive understanding of the situation. I have a challenge for you as well: find one example of your having an original though.
ulytau (541 D)
11 Dec 12 UTC
"However, its good that you're studying economics as its a very interesting field and I think your viewpoints will develop as you move beyond first year courses."

That's what I always say to myself when I see Fasces replying with something like "Coase theorem", without dissecting the important fact it has some very strict preconditions for being even applicable. I think people are most opinionated about economics when they know something. When they know nothing, they don't care, when they know a lot, they see it's seldom clear-cut.
Putin33 (111 D)
11 Dec 12 UTC
I can't find a single reputable economic professor with a syllabus with Hayek on the reading list. Most "Austrians" (the few that exist) only talk to other Austrians and rarely if ever get published.
Frank (100 D)
11 Dec 12 UTC
Yeah, I went through several degrees in econ and never once read Hayek. Or Adam Smith for that matter. Or Karl Marx.
I mainly spent my time reading stuff line like this:
http://www.ees.nmt.edu/outside/courses/GEOP505/Docs/arma.pdf

I think its too bad that Fasces is misrepresenting the field so badly.
Thucydides (864 D(B))
11 Dec 12 UTC
Fasces, that's my point (re: Caucasian etc). Since race is socially constructed, what matters is how people talk about it. There is no official designation in the way that humans are officially designated Homo sapiens sapiens. There is, indeed, no distinct boundary between the different types of races. When you understand this, it becomes clear why a strange concept like "self-identification" becomes all-important in the discussion of race terminology.

Back to this "differences between the races" question. Take note of what I am about to say:

There are indeed differences between the races. But these are no more significant than the differences between Georgians and Floridians, and should not be treated as any more than trivial, in the broad sense (I am not saying that things like cystic fibrosis and sickle cell are in themselves trivial).

What is important is the emphasis. It is one thing to state factually that the social races tend to correlate to a few specific biological differences (like phenotype, the progenitor of the whole mess), but it is another thing to give that fact any practical weight. My eyes are blue, so I am different in that way from my neighbor. But I rarely if ever highlight this. It's just not relevant.

And this is the root of why I reject the statement that "my race is better than other races in some ways." Maybe in some restricted narrow sense this is true (going off a social definition of the race, since there is no genetic definition), but the essence of the question implies a statement that I do not agree with, which is that there are important and inherent differences among racial groups. This is untrue. There are not. In the main, there is no difference at all.

Do you see how the emphasis is what is driving this? The emphasis on the differences is a rhetorical cousin to racism, if not masked racism itself, and it is for that reason that we must steer clear of it completely.

The idea of superiority is entirely subjective. Think about this statement for a moment:

"I have many superior qualities, compared to my brother." This may be strictly true in the sense that you were talking about - I write better than he does, I run faster than he does, and so on. But I would not answer, in the context of the quiz, that I agree with the statement, because such a statement is obviously really just asking about my position on egalitarianism - do I believe I am equal to my brother, or above him?

Similarly, the statement in question is asking, underneath "Are some races better than others?" If you disagree (agreement with the statement is truly the essence of racism), you must say no.
Thucydides (864 D(B))
11 Dec 12 UTC
Onnn a lighter note:

ITT: http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_md3pgs58v71qd7dni.gif
Fasces349 (0 DX)
11 Dec 12 UTC
"Source?"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XKANfuq_92U

"Also, you keep trying to pass off your videos and Hayek, etc, as if they represent the entire field of economics, which is not remotely true."
I don't, the video is keynote presentation entitled the myth of the rational voter and one of the things it talks about is the difference in oppinion between those who have studied economics and those who have not, and that according to his research, economists are signficantly more likely to favour free market solutions then non-economists.

And as for Hayek, not once have I stated that I agree with him.

"And there you go again, Fasces, oversimplified ad populum arguments and appeals to authority without any of your own ideas or any comprehensive understanding of the situation. I have a challenge for you as well: find one example of your having an original though."
Ghug, unlike you I understand and accept the fact that being quite young, almost 19, I don't know everything and would like to study more before coming up with my own ideas. For now I will support the ideas that I understand and agree with. As for an example of coming up with my own idea. The last truly original economic idea I came up with:
http://webdiplomacy.net/forum.php?viewthread=937914#937914

"I can't find a single reputable economic professor with a syllabus with Hayek on the reading list. Most "Austrians" (the few that exist) only talk to other Austrians and rarely if ever get published."
I AM NOT AN AUSTRIAN ECONOMIST!
Fasces349 (0 DX)
11 Dec 12 UTC
"Similarly, the statement in question is asking, underneath "Are some races better than others?" If you disagree (agreement with the statement is truly the essence of racism), you must say no."
The question wasn't if some races are better then others (that I would say no too), the question was if your race has some superior qualities to other races (that I would say yes to). There is a difference between have a superior quality and being overall superior.
ulytau (541 D)
11 Dec 12 UTC
That also depends on the course, Putin. A general economics course, be it micro, macro, econometrics etc. has no business having Hayek there - when you are trying to apply an economic theory and calculate something, Austrian school is the last place you would look for help. However, history of economic thinking should have him as a follower of Austrian school, by far not the most important though, that would be an actual "Austrian" Carl Menger whose thoughts helped propel the marginalist revolution; von Mises also much more representative of Austrian thinking. And unorthodox Schumpeter should be a valid alternative to Hayek if the professor feels generous on listing 4 guys' books from a fringe economic school. It's just that Hayek has been made sexy in comparison to guys like Schmoller, Wicksell or Veblen because Austrians are a very vocal minority, especially on teh internetz.
Thucydides (864 D(B))
11 Dec 12 UTC
Okay, Fasces, I just spent that entire post going over why in the context answering that you agree is to be an ally of racism. Was there something... you didn't read? Or understand?
Fasces349 (0 DX)
11 Dec 12 UTC
"Okay, Fasces, I just spent that entire post going over why in the context answering that you agree is to be an ally of racism. Was there something... you didn't read? Or understand?"
It was a tl;dr moment so I only read the last paragraph, lolo
Thucydides (864 D(B))
11 Dec 12 UTC
It's like asking:

"Have you ever wanted to kill a person?"

If someone asked me that in an interview, the answer would change depending on the context. If it was for legal purposes, I would say no, because the underlying implication is have you ever *seriously* thought about murder, whereas in something like a psychology study I would say yes because, strictly speaking, the thought has crossed my mind as it has for us all. There is a nuance here that you're not picking up.

In the same way, if it was a scientific paper talking about the likelihood of getting a genetic disorder, it might make sense to talk about "superiority" of European-ancestry people against lactose intolerance or something (though, for reasons I have been outlining, even in this context the use of the term superior is highly suspect and would be avoided because IT IMPLIES RACISM, just as it did in this quiz), but if it was on a political quiz right next to a question about nationalism... it becomes rather obvious what they are getting at.

Do you see now what I'm getting at?
Fasces349 (0 DX)
11 Dec 12 UTC
I do and thats why I agreed and not strongly agreed with the statement and why you should have disagreed and not strongly disagreed.

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208 replies
abgemacht (1076 D(G))
08 Dec 12 UTC
Charities
So, I had a few promising interviews last week and my hope is to actually be employed soon. Once I have more money, I'd like to regularly contribute to some charities. Does anyone have any recommendations?
27 replies
Open
redhouse1938 (429 D)
10 Dec 12 UTC
Why do countries borrow money?
I've been asking myself this question for an eternity. Why not ask 1% more taxes and slowly create a buffer, a government bank account with money for large investments?
74 replies
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Jamiet99uk (873 D)
04 Dec 12 UTC
WoT
Anyone on here play World of Tanks?
17 replies
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GoodOlBoy (0 DX)
09 Dec 12 UTC
World Game, Global Chat Only
gameID=105969
Still need 15 players. Who's in?
1 reply
Open
obiwanobiwan (248 D)
09 Dec 12 UTC
Put On Your Yarmulke, It's Time For Hanukkah...
Sundown on the day BEFORE Caldenders say it starts...Silly celebration of eight-day oil? Yes. Shameless commercial ripoff of shamelessly commercialized Christmas? Yes. But the point is...it's OUR silly, fun commercial ripoff, so remember, kids, "You don't have to deck the halls or Jingle Bell Rock 'Cause You Can Spin a Dreidel With CAPTAIN KIRK AND MR. SPOCK--*BOTH JEWISH!*" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xDV_reO930A
123 replies
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Praed (100 D)
10 Dec 12 UTC
Replacement needed
http://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=105382

Germany, 1902, reasonable position, 5 SCs, Full press, WTA, Bet 10.
1 reply
Open
bo_sox48 (5202 DMod(G))
10 Dec 12 UTC
Black List
Are there any ongoing developments on a player black list for people we don't want to play with?
1 reply
Open
Jamiet99uk (873 D)
09 Dec 12 UTC
Sikhism
We always have a go at Christianity, Islam and Judaism on here. Let's mix it up for a bit. What do you all think about the Sikhs?
39 replies
Open
Yonni (136 D(S))
09 Dec 12 UTC
The Inaugural Triathlon Tournament Winner is Tasnica
Congratulations to Tasnica on winning the tournament.
14 replies
Open
redhouse1938 (429 D)
04 Dec 12 UTC
redhouse must die
Classic, WTA, FP, anon, PW protected, 107 D
gameID=105657
For all people who have a better peak GR than me
34 replies
Open
2ndWhiteLine (2611 D(B))
08 Dec 12 UTC
In Montreal
I'm drunk inMontreal. Any web dippers up here?
12 replies
Open
Putin33 (111 D)
08 Dec 12 UTC
The Lakers
How are they this bad?
28 replies
Open
captainmeme (1723 DMod)
09 Dec 12 UTC
VDip down...
Is it just me or has it crashed for everyone?
2 replies
Open
Octavious (2701 D)
09 Dec 12 UTC
RIP Sir Patrick Moore
A legend has passed...
2 replies
Open
SpeakerToAliens (147 D(S))
09 Dec 12 UTC
RIP Sir Patrick Moore a brilliant astronomer and presenter
He presented a monthly astronomy program on the BBC called "The Sky At Night" from it's first episode in 1957. It was the longest running TV series with the same presenter and in all that time he only missed one episode.

"Patrick is irreplaceable. There will never be another Patrick Moore. But we were lucky enough to get one." - Dr Brian May.
0 replies
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bo_sox48 (5202 DMod(G))
09 Dec 12 UTC
The Tax Man Says...
Don't die next year!

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/why-shouldnt-die-2013-163217144.html
3 replies
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