@Smiley, Please don't do this. It is equivalent to the public trials suggested earlier. Sorting out cheaters is the work of the mods, and it seems you want to do their work for them. While I appreciate your effort, this is something that has to be done by them. Going public with cheater accusation always results in conflict.

@gram: Good idea. Perhaps we can have a reference system (sort of the 'like' button on facebook). On everybody's profile their is a button which says "This is a good player", and if you hit it, you will be added to their reference list. So then very quickly, all the regulars on the site will get huge reference lists, and the shady players will only get references from their own multi's

"Please don't do this. It is equivalent to the public trials suggested earlier"

In a way. It's not so much for cheaters, as it is for people who just don't know how to play the game. And I'm not convinced public trials are a terrible thing, but that's for the other thread.

The other thing is that mods don't always ban a cheater. They often just warn them. The guys last night that were friends and playing together and didn't tell anyone almost certainly won't be banned. But they're on my blacklist, because I don't want to play with players like that.

Your inability to understand human nature must be what is keeping you from seeing what is wrong with your idea. I do not by any means discourage people from keeping tabs on the games they've played. It allows you to study your growth as a player and better understand how different types of people approach games of Diplomacy. HOWEVER, keeping public tabs on people and saying "In effect this person should NEVER be played with" will most certainly be turned into a hitlist whether you like it mr not. Regardless of your intentions, it is not possible to simply "warn" someone about another player. Plain and simple.

I agree with Sammy complelty. and :D, your blacklist is not nearly as public as what you are bringing up. I think what you want is your own website, where only the elite players are allowed to join....

Honestly people will abuse this to the point if it was a good idea (which it isn't) it would be rendered impotent

There is a quote from Albert Einstein which I like to cite every now and then:

"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe."

He turned out to be wrong about the latter, but that's an entirely different story.

@smiley, To respond to your point, if you want to have a list you never want to play with, then you should have a private blacklist (and indeed you do). This is an personal matter. You have every right to decide you don't want to play a game with a particular player.

A public blacklist is an entirely different matter, though. People on that blacklist are people that the community as a whole does not want to play. If someone is put on that list, and the community agrees, then that's equivalent to a ban, only that he still has the ability to troll forum and games.

Plus, someone can change, especially in competence. In my first games on this site, I was totally incompetent. You wouldn have wanted to play me then. Now I have improved. And this is true for all of us.

So private blacklist, good idea (I have one myself, too). A private blacklist made available to the public, okay (I personally don't, but you can). A public blacklist, really bad plan.

The problem with a blacklist is that Anon games are so stinking common.

Ick. I think that Anon games are in that regard one of the worst things to happen to the site. Since the downsides in my mind outweigh the benefits by a lot. What I think would be awesome is a semi-anon setting were. At the beginning when the game is just starting up all the players names are visible. Then once the game is started the system assigns powers and makes the names Anon. It would be the best of both worlds. You could avoid players who you don't want to play with. But at the same time avoid people metagaming because of who you are in game.

Oh great idea! Yeah we need a public blacklist so that we can excommunicate the BAD PLAYERS *-* Since we are the greatest players we have all the authority to decide who is bad and who is good. (and guess what is the best side? If someoen backstabs us or tricks us with his tactics we can just put him in the blacklist too *-* yaaaay! )

I'm preparing a list as well to manifest the players who backstabbed me when I least expect and who didnt let me win the game =D oh wait a minute, I mean the ones who play horrible and dont reply your messages etc =D

We may lose the game ! But we can punish the ones who win by blacklisting theeeem *-* And imagine threatening others during the game saying " HEY YOU DO WHAT IS SAY OR I BLACKLIST YAA! >D mwahahahaha!" That sounds so fuuun *-*

I'm preparing my blacklist to publish it right away *-* lets kick the blacksheeps ouuut! Heil smiley face :D

if someone really wanted to they could easily get around the blacklist even if you did make it by simply quitting that account and making a new one when they were put on the blacklist, i like the idea about players having a "this is a good player" type button on the profiles. i think that could be a lot of fun to see how many of the people i have talked to or played with would consider me a good player.

Yes Maltizok that's the spirit *-* Label everyone, decide who is good *-*

Excuse me but the idea of a blacklist, say it is a public blacklist or something arranged by some players, is completely childish and deeply lacks common sense...

A friend list makes sense but it must be something like a facebook chat option.

If you create a blacklist based on how good a player decides (as if anyone can decide it xD) will most certainly create a lot of conflict between players. Furthermore it will certainly be open to abusals...

A blacklist idea is completely ridiculous and if you support this idea you shoul honestly consider what can the results be deeply...

To respond to a few things:

I really wasn't suggesting that this was the greatest idea ever. I was asking what people thought about the idea, and people have raised considerations that I hadn't thought about. Which is what I was looking for.

"What I think would be awesome is a semi-anon setting were. At the beginning when the game is just starting up all the players names are visible."

This has been asked for time and time again. I would be shocked if it weren't in the next major update. (Major Update! *salutes*) And in regards to anon games generally, if it's a serious game, it's generally invitational based, which means you'd know who's playing. I certainly don't check my list for every game I make, especially live ones.

"Oh great idea! Yeah we need a public blacklist so that we can excommunicate the BAD PLAYERS *-* Since we are the greatest players we have all the authority to decide who is bad and who is good. (and guess what is the best side? If someoen backstabs us or tricks us with his tactics we can just put him in the blacklist too *-* yaaaay! ) "

Yeah, actually. That's pretty much the idea. But you'd find that most people who truly enjoy traditionally played diplomacy, rather than get bitter at a stab, will admire how well done it was. I'd never put someone on my blacklist because they stabbed me.

"if someone really wanted to they could easily get around the blacklist even if you did make it by simply quitting that account and making a new one when they were put on the blacklist"

That's against the rules, technically, but I doubt the mods would ever enforce a ban on it.

@neb
i wasnt saying that it would mean that they're even good at the game i was just saying you could "like" them which means that you enjoyed playing with them and i personally wouldnt like them because of the happenings in a single game either, id decide to like the person or not based off their communication with me and how well they played or worked with people in multiple games.

This idea goes against everything this hobby stands for.

Diplomacy has sustained a loyal player base for decades not simply because it's a good game, but because the majority of people who play it are mature enough to remember it's just a game, and be civil even with the most bumbling or belligerent players.

The hobby continues to grow because the communities for all types of play are welcoming and supportive. The new players that understand this stick around. Those that don't tend to lose interest and weed themselves out.

This particular site has a well-conceived mechanism for avoiding playing with "bad players," which is the points system. If you don't want to play with someone who plays poorly, don't play in low stakes games.

Starting a blacklist, administered by a self-selected clique, would seed resentment and create deep divisions within the community. I myself would not play with anyone who is enough of an elitist to participate in that kind of witch hunt.

ibadibam +1

Well stated. I have no problem with a friends list or a *personal* blacklist (I have an unpublished one that is constantly revised with players coming off on occasion), but a public black list is bad for the hobby in general.

So it is clear that we need a chat-based application maybe something like a facebook chat thingie where you can add friends and block the people you are annoyed of, I think.

But that's completely different than making a "blacklist of worst players" or something similar... I think I have explained the vicious mind behind it clear enough in my sarcastic message...

Publishing your blacklist is dangerous as well, because it can also cause the discrimination of these players... Whatever criterion "smileyface" used, there is no way we can truly know why people in his blacklist are put there. However, appearantly there are some people who are already ready to obey the list...

I dont know the players in his list but it can be offending for them as well, or for anyone to see themselves "classified" as "terrible player". I cannot even think how shameful it would be to see more people in the community labeling each other "terrible player", "bad player" etc. and publishing it on their profiles...

And finally why there shouldnt be a "like" button... Imagine you have just started playing with 7 people. You allied with one of them and defeat another. Defeated one gives both of you "dislike". Then the game proceeded and you come to back stab your old ally... He gives you a dislike too... So naturally you are more tended to get dislikes if there is a dislike button near like button. besides there is nothing possible to prevent an early defeated one to dislike everybody in the game... that's even more ridiculous in World Map games xD

Only a like button can also be abused. People can start random games with some of their friends to boost their "like"s. As in 5 people may agree to like each other in consequentially drawn games. besides it can turn into a courtesy to like everybody in the game which I find more likely...

I think the recent system is sufficient but it would be better with an integrated instant chat system though :3 or at least if there were maybe an irc room, or something like that.

I envision a system where your profile would show "23 members agree this is a reliable player", then when you click on it, you'd see a list of those 23 people. I think (but I'm not sure) this would not be very hard to program. So if a person has many "referees", but they are all shady, played less than ten games, Cd often and such, I wouldn't be impressed. On the opposite side, if someone has less than 10 references, but they are from respected guys like top 20 GR players or mods, that tells me he's a solid and competent player.

A dislike button is very much contrary to what I would like to have. I like to be able to say publicly that some players are polite, competent and enjoyable to play against.

the like button thing i was thinking would be on their profile and you couldnt like someone more than once, and it shouldnt be based off just one game but multiple games and also your communication with the player

Of course, once you've said you like someone, there's no reason to double-like. And people would be encouraged to be conservative with whom to like. Much like when you apply for a job, you can't put some random people you've worked with in the past as references.

i think it would be kinda cool if it showed who you liked and what players liked you as well

new entry: "Smileyface"
date added: today
reason: created infamous "blacklist" (see viewthread=683322#683322)

"there is no way we can truly know why people in his blacklist are put there. "

Actually, you do. Because I cite reasons. And I don't do it except in extreme circumstances.

And Re: the Facebook discussion: Most of ya'lls suggestions involve a lot of coding. Which isn't going to be done, unless you're going to do it.

If someone put me on their black-list I honestly couldn't give a crap. If it were because someone thought I had cheated and stated so in their black list, then I would bring it up in the forum. I would feel confident that I could easily defend myself and be completely vindicated in front of my peers. And if it were pointed out that in my games other players with suspicious names, such as spyman2, spyman3 and spyman4 were logging in at exactly the same time from the same IP, I would simply use the Chewbacca defense, and come away smelling of roses.

I looked at the code once, but I don't understand a word of it (pun not intended). I can code in c++, but not in php. However, my idea would be relatively simple. For each player, the site has to store a list of referees (most probably player IDs). Considering we are at 10^4 players, and players will have 10-100 references each, that's a couple of MB's storage space. So no problem there. And there has to be an extra button.

If someone would be so kind as to teach me to code php, I'd be happy to do it.

God Mr. Smiley you are killing me. You have no authority to decide who is a good player and who is not.

Lets see why:

"I am so angry. I can't believe you all (England, Germany, Italy, and somewhat Turkey) were possibly this stupid. This is positively the WORST game I've ever played. I have NEVER seen poorer caliber play than this. As I'm writing this, it's only 1904, and it's already virtually certain that Russia will solo. We've been able to tell he was on that path since 1902, yet for some strange reason, no one seemed interested in stopping it. They, for some reason, were more determined to wipe France off the board. God only knows why."

You are degrading people, offending and humiliating them. You are impyling that they are stupid.

Your reasoning is defective... They are terrible players because they cannot foresee what you claim to foresee... No one has power to decide that and I think should learn to play with "bad" players as well...

My point is brief and clear, it is dangerous for this community to have a blacklist.
Yet it is much catastrophic if this blacklist is made by Mr. Smiley face.

As I said there is no way we can truly know why people are in your blacklist... You give reasons but how HONEST are they ? How qualified and trustable is your justification?

You are no different then any other player in this game and has no power to determine a blacklist. No one has.

I think you should stop being arrogant and reconsider what you are asking for...

I'll be honest Smiley face, I'm just glad that I have never played a game with you at all, because if you had commented me like that I wouldnt let you get away with it. (That comment was in the reasoning in his document about whom he called a "terrible player")

It is even more ridiculous that you dismiss the fb-chatting thingie because "it is hard to code" whereas you prefer to introduce something that is open to cause discrimation and many other problems in the community...

There's no point in responding to that. That quote was taken entirely out of context. I had more than enough reasons for saying that, but you didn't include any of them in the copy paste.

And if you disagree that that was terrible play in that game, then, there's just nothing more we can say. Because that game WAS ridiculous.

That game may be ridiculous for you but it may not be that ridiculous for Russia for example... I really wonder how would Russia comment on you =3 oh and I think we should underline that it was a no-ingame messaging game =3

Anyway "if you disagree that that was terrible play in that game, then, there's just nothing more we can say. Because that game WAS ridiculous."
Nothing more can I say against this strong reasoning... ;3

Actually, Russia and I talked about that game in private messaging a little bit. He was pretty much of the opinion that Italy was an asshat, as was I.

not trying to be obnoxious by placing this on every thread but i would really like some feedback as soon as possible because i already have one new player who is interested
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