@Thucy

I can win an argument or I can be persuaded to believe a different view, but I don't quit. You have convinced me that there are certain segments of American society that view certain kinds of rape as ok, and you have convinced me that these segments are rather larger than I would have imagined. I remain unconvinced that the term "rape culture" is helpful in fighting this, and I remain utterly convinced it will be counter productive in the UK.

I've given up trying to convince you of much of anything worthwhile, frankly. You reject egalitarianism. We don't have much in common.

@oct have you not seen the 'lad bible', which had an article saying go for it with really drunk girls, and ended with a comment about how most rapes go unreported? it incidentally has about 2 million likes on facebook, and seems to be something a lot of young men like. this is not to mention comments in britain by leading lawyers talking about rape victims being morally culpable, and the victim shaming that goes on.

Octavious: Nice to see you again since you declared far-away lives worthless at the end of threadID=1101541.

Your comments here have motivated me to find an article which I hadn't been able to find since I read it in paper form over three years ago. I'll reply soon enough, but in the meantime, read this:
http://wesleyanargus.com/2010/12/07/oppression-repression-and-justification-stop-excusing-sexual-harassment/
I'm interested to hear your reaction.

@SD

Nope, I've never heard of it. Nor have I encountered any victim shaming, which as victims remain anonymous seems rather difficult to do. I am also not aware of a great many lawyers making any such statements, or the circumstances in which they did so.

@ JECE

I said that you shouldn't allow the decisions of what's best for your own nation to be swayed by people using it as excuse to be bastards to each other elsewhere. I never said far away lives were worthless and you should be ashamed for suggesting such things.

I shall read your article and get back to you.

"What it's describing is the phenomenon of our society's excuse of one kind of action that is considered by the women's rights community to be rape."
Rape is sex without consent, I think everyone agrees on that...

My problem is that some feminists I know consider sex while the women is drunk to be rape, when it is most certainly not.

"Although there are certainly people who say that assault to force rape is okay when the woman "deserves it,""
Name them, a majority of people in North America believe rape to be the worse then murder. I don't know anyone who believes rape or assault is ok under any circumstances and I'm willing to bet you don't know any either.

"One example is if someone has sex with someone who is passed out, or if the other person feels obligated to perform sexual acts. Rape culture describes the relative social acceptance of such acts in our society."
Passed out=Rape, I think almost everyone agrees there
Feeling obligation, it depends on the context. Societal pressure=/=rape, but if you're being forced to have sex, then it is rape.

"Rape culture describes the relative social acceptance of such acts in our society."
That's my problem, feminists talk about the social acceptance of rape, but I don't know anyone who believe rape is ok and I assume they don't either.

"The other part of it is the belief that it's the woman's fault for getting raped because she drank or was dressed "slutty" or walked somewhere unsafe alone or any other such excuses."
If she consents cause she was drunk and then regrets it in the morning, that is not rape.

"Does OP mean believing in it as in believing it exists or believing it's a good thing?"
What I'm saying is I honestly don't know who in their right minds would believe that we live in a rape culture.

"you don't see the rape culture in the parties you go to?"
Flirting with the attractive girl=/=rape

"You don't hear how the frat boys talk about their female guests?"
Talking about the desire to fuck someone=/=desire to rape

"You don't hear how a girl accusing a popular guy of rape is often ostracized and insulted by her perverse friends circle as well as the guy's buds?"
I've never personally witnessed a girl accuse someone of rape.

"You don't hear the excuses for public groping, taking advantage of unconcious girls or demands for sex on eye contact?"
Hey I just met you and we're both attractive and drunk, lets have sex=Asking for consent=not rape

"There was a scandal involving two football players who raped a girl, I think this was about a year ago. Might've heard about it on a thread here, in fact. The story went something like, the two guys raped her, and the girl was called out on reporting them and ending their promising football careers, or something. I forget details, but it was a perfect example of "rape culture""
I like Tolstoy's response, a different case where the football star served jail time when he was innocent.

However I will speak of the context of that example, after being convicted one report said on live TV said something along the lines of that it was a shame that this will end two promising football careers. About the context:
1. It was one reporter, not everyone calling her out
2. The reporter was female
3. She was fired for it after public outcry about what she said.

"not getting violently assaulted is a good thing. not being exploited by others is a good thing. Thus acting in ways which aim to minimize occurrences of rape by challenging this culture is a good thing. "
Almost everyone agrees the first two points are true, and that's my point, because there is a universal acceptance that rape is bad, we don't have a culture of rape and so there is no culture to challenge.

"I know people who have been raped, Fasces, and frankly, in 2014, asking what "Rape culture" is seems somewhat akin to asking what "the glass ceiling" or "equal treatment is"--"
I'm not asking what rape culture is, I took half a women studies course first year (dropped it halfway through cause I hated the course), I know what rape culture is, I'm just wondering if anyone can honestly think its real.

I don't believe in the glass ceiling and I believe that women at the moment have more rights then men, so you can't really talk about equality.

"After all, you have far more important things to do than show basic dignity towards your female counterparts by acknowledging the legitimacy of this all-too real problem for female (and males) in Western society, right?"
I will not acknowledge the legitimacy of something I am almost certain isn't legitimate.

"@tolstoy: no, it was a lot more recent than that. But I think that there is more than one case of this sort of thing happening kind of proves my point."
His was an example where a women accused a football star of rape, the public demanded the football star serve jail time and 5 years later she admitted she made up the whole story to seek attention and that she wasn't actually raped.

"Our courts demand a presumption of innocence and that guilt is proven beyond reasonable doubt. An inescapable consequence of this is where a case hinges on one person's word against another, more often than not there won't be a guilty verdict. This is not rape culture, this is the rule of law carried out to the best of our ability, and until genuinely reliable lie detectors are used in courts I see no just solution to this, but in the meantime the handing out of far stiffer gaol terms for those cases that can be proven would be a good start."
+1 Octavious

"I can win an argument or I can be persuaded to believe a different view, but I don't quit. You have convinced me that there are certain segments of American society that view certain kinds of rape as ok, and you have convinced me that these segments are rather larger than I would have imagined. I remain unconvinced that the term "rape culture" is helpful in fighting this, and I remain utterly convinced it will be counter productive in the UK."
What kinds of rape are viewed as ok by the American population?

If the UK has never heard of rape culture then that speaks ill of the UK. I trust though that Octavious does not speak for that country, and like everything else simply wishes it to go away or to dump it at the feet of "FemSoc".

"What kinds of rape are viewed as ok by the American population?"

http://thinkprogress.org/health/2013/10/14/2777431/maryville-missouri-rape/#

This case exemplifies the problem writ large. There are many cases like it.

Fasces349: Why don't you read the article I sent Octavious too? It never mentions "culture", but it certainly highlights the unacceptable behaviors.

And I'm not sure it's worth replying to your comments directly. Your comments clearly show that you are confusing rapes with the culture that encourages rapes, that even though you read about rape cases you never notice how victims are harassed and that you don't consider taking sexual advantage of another's mental incapacity to be rape.

@Fasces:

'My problem is that some feminists I know consider sex while the women is drunk to be rape, when it is most certainly not.'

I think you'll agree that there is a sliding scale between drunk and passed out,

How drunk do you have to be to pass out?
At what exact point do you lose the ability to consent?
If you black out and have no memory of consenting or the person you wake up with, was it rape?

The idea of rape culture is not just 'oh she was drunk so it was rape' it is more like: 'preying on drunken women is seen as an acceptable method of getting sex - this leads to a huge amount of date rape'; rape culture, which you seem to be perpetuating, is the idea that this is very fucking wrong. (though not limited to alcohol obviously)

'Feeling obligation, it depends on the context. Societal pressure=/=rape, but if you're being forced to have sex, then it is rape.'

Again, this is a grey area. Context, being coerced into having sex is rape, whether violence is used, or the threat of violence or the implied threat of violence. But even without threats, coercion makes it rape. And there is a culture where men believe they HAVE to convince a woman to have sex (because women clearly don't like sex, or they'd be crawling around like the cavemen males gagging for it) So it is a man's duty to convince/coerce/force... This is also rape culture, because it places men in a position where they are expected to push into this grey area and excuse their rape as not really that serious, 'like, she agreed in the end...'

Which leads us to 'That's my problem, feminists talk about the social acceptance of rape, but I don't know anyone who believe rape is ok and I assume they don't either.' :: Exactly, but some of these people would not consider these situations of coercion or extreme drunkenness to even BE rape, thus they ARE precisely accepting the actions - which the feminists have clearly understood to be rape. The fact that men often haven't needed considered it is their privilege, and the thing i think we can agree on is there are grey areas. The problem occurs when 'mens culture' expects them to push into those grey areas, as a matter of course.

So, here's your position, you don't believe rape is ok, but you exclude various things from your definition so that there is no culture of rape. Hooray, that means nobody is being harmed, because by your definition the grey area is rather clear. Don't listen to the victims here, there's no point in listening to those people who claim they are being harmed, when you've already got a clear definition in your mind!

Now you're entitled to your opinion, but it shouldn't be about feminists against men, you should listen to the opinions of victims and see if you can do anything make their lives easier - change your culture, challenge the assumptions of your male friends if they stray into that grey area - it's much easier for you as a male to make your voice heard, while 'those crazy feminists' are much easier to ignore. But your life being easy is an example of privilege the only question is what you're going to do with that privilege.

'1. It was one reporter, not everyone calling her out
2. The reporter was female
3. She was fired for it after public outcry about what she said.'

1. One reporter who was perpetuating rape culture/victim blaming.
2. Being female does not make one a feminist, nor does it prevent you from being sexist or part of a sexist culture. (for pretty much the same reason the black people can be racist)
3. Public outcry is an example of the counter culture being listened to, and feminists rejoice - that doesn't mean rape culture doesn't exist, it means exactly that it exists and is a problem of there would have been no outcry - in an ideal world the reported might have said ''such a shame these boys raped a girl, as they had such promising football careers'' And nobody would have care. We don't live in a perfect world, we live in one with many shades of grey, and people who are not aware of these issues probably shouldn't do damage to others in a public way, like a reporter or politician who happen to hold positions where their voice is heard more easily.

I hope you can agreed at least in principle that any reporter who uses their position to damage 'minorities' (actually perhaps women are a majority, i should really say under-privileged, or 'anyone') should lose their job. (being a politician is a different kind of question, as the people decide whether they lose their job anyway)

'I don't believe in the glass ceiling and I believe that women at the moment have more rights then men, so you can't really talk about equality.' - you don't believe in the glass ceiling, that's nice, do you understand statistics? And which rights do men lack? There are privileges of being a woman certainly - you just have to look at clothing, a woman can dress in men's clothes and nobody says a word, but a man in woman's clothing gets ridiculed. That is a privilege women hold in our society. (men can do it as a 'joke' as it happens, but then there are merely inviting the ridicule and taking part, which is not the same as there being no ridicule) Certainly there are places here women have different rights to men, and both have privileges which the other lack, that doesn't mean it is easy to say one has 'more' than the other, like all the grey areas above, it is very hard to count up the rights and privileges and measure them against each other...

I hope i have already addressed this: ''What kinds of rape are viewed as ok by the American population?'', but the quote from Todd Akin: 'If it is a legitimate rape, the female body has ways to try and shut that whole thing down.' - is redefining something as 'legitimate rape' it is illegitimate rape which is 'ok' according to Todd Akin, representative (elected) of the American people...

@Octavious, yes most of these issues are the same in the UK (and Ireland), i've lived there and have friends there. There is no disconnect between huge portions of US culture and UK culture.

You are, likewise, in a position to educate yourself about the people in your culture and avoid harming them. You are also probably able to ignore their issues as 'minority' or 'crazy feminists' and live out your life while people - whoever they are - shout about being hurt/victimized. Feel free to make whatever you see as the moral choice.

And there are ways in which boys get a shitty deal in life see: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=23Uuehgmd14

This does use the word boys culture, but it is not a case of our culture vs their culture. We can be staunch feminists AND try to improve education for boys. We should just avoid getting our heads stuck up our own arses and not seeing the damage that one ideology is doing.

That doesn't mean a given idea is wrong and should be thrown out, it just means we need to acknowledge that any idea taken to the extreme and without the context of listening to others will do more harm than good.

@oct

I'm not talking about the courts, specifically. I don't specifically believe the courts are biased in this matter, and I have respect for the way our justice system presumes innocence.

The courts aside, I'm only saying that for whatever reason rapists are not brought to justice. Many women do not come forward because of the shame. Only 16% of rape cases are reported:

http://web.archive.org/web/20070718110210/http://sa.rochester.edu/masa/stats.php

That is due to a societal pressure that still looks for any excuse to show that she "had it coming" for various reasons - see Draugnar's typical responses (sorry to keep picking on you Draug, but your feelings for better or worse are in a very real way the typical white male viewpoint on this topic) the last time the topic of rape came up on the forum.

A culture of rape does not mean a culture that embraces rape, or encourages rape. A culture of rape does not mean that rape figures heavily into our national identity. A culture of rape is a culture where rape is endemic - period. 1 in 5 women in America claim to have been raped or had rape attempted on them. It is a culture of rape.

in on 2nd page

fuck abge already got to my gif

http://www.oneinfourusa.org/statistics.php

Rape culture is that 'our' society teaches to not get raped, rather than not to rape. I think its pretty obvious that 'we' live in a disgustingly patriarchal culture that allows one group of people to define another groups experiences for them, define their identity for them, and to police and reinforce these social constructs. If you dont realize this its because you live in some "undiscovered" egalitarian or matriarchal amazonian tribe, or because you have a penis and a head thats reeeeeally far up your own ass.

Sicarius -- do you believe that you should lock the doors to your house? That owning a dog is a good deterrent to break-ins? That owning a home security system helps prevent break-ins and burglary? Do you believe that drivers should wear their seat belts? Do you think that we should refrain from consuming a diet of potato chips and ice cream?

Once again, the fucking Libtard brigade disposes all sense of reason and logic.

NOBODY advocates people raping people. NO-BO-DY.

But to be so completely fucking moronic and say that **in every other** aspect of your life, your bear at least some responsibility to prevent harm to yourself....but when if comes to a woman she should be completely ignorant of risk factors involving rape, is just about the most evil, cruel and heartless stance you can take.

I guarantee you, MY daughters are taught to beware asshole teenage boys, they are taught to be conscience of who is in the parking lot on the way to their car, and yes, I teach them to dress modestly, because having their tits hanging out of the top serves no good purpose other than to attract the eyes of men, and may lead to unwanted attention...especially once they get to college and are in a hyper-charged sexual arena full of drunken assholes, maybe fraternity situations, etc.

Way to go, haters-of-women....way to teach women NOT to be self-responsible for their own inherent risk factors.

Asshole.

Yes I think you should lock your doors, but if you leave them unlocked its not your fault if you get robbed. As far as seatbelts and diet, thats one persons choice for what they do to themselves, I have no opinion. And I'm most certainly not saying women or anyone should be kept unaware of real risks. I'm saying all too frequently a rape victim will be blamed for not doing this or that to prevent it.

I'm saying while people should do their best to minimize risk to themselves, being raped is NEVER the fault of the victim. Sadly it is not portrayed that way most of the time.

Exactly. When you ask your typical male what can be done to prevent rape, he'll spout off endlessly about what women can do to protect themselves, but has nothing at all to suggest about what your typical male can do differently.

But maybe the problem isn't that women aren't sufficiently educated about the risks - doesn't it seem more likely that the real problem is that rape is an "inherent risk" to being a woman? That's what a rape culture is all about.

@ JECE

Sorry it took a while, but I read the article. I have to admit I'm at a loss as to what the point of it is. Some arsehole at a party made a very nasty remark at a women there. The woman didn't like it. Her friends reacted rather bizarrely, suggesting she's made a few crap choices in who she shares her life with, but aside from this being one of those events that would result in a night at the station if it took place under a policeman's nose (much like drug taking, stealing of wallets, fighting, and that ilk) I don't see what you want me to get from this.