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A place to discuss topics/games with other webDiplomacy players.
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Marlen (20 D X)
10 Apr 15 UTC
(+1)
South America Variant
I have no friends. So between my mom and dad and two siblings we play the 5-player South America map. I searched "Diplomacy South America Strategy" and only get Risk results. I am always the first to lose and my parents laugh every time and tell me to make myself useful and do the dishes while they enjoy a game with their real children. Any help?
9 replies
Open
Porthmeus (104 D)
11 Apr 15 UTC
Effects of Voting for a draw
What affect does voting for a draw have on the amount bet or value of the pot in a game?
3 replies
Open
jmspool (100 D)
11 Apr 15 UTC
Diplomacy mentioned in controversial Buzzfeed gaming post
Yes, you read that right. Buzzfeed somehow made a post about gaming controversial.

This is the post: http://www.buzzfeed.com/tomchivers/monopoly-sucks
You'll see that Diplomacy gets high marks.
6 replies
Open
yassem (2533 D)
08 Apr 15 UTC
Just next killing of a black man by white cop
And though all the arguments have already been spoken I am just honestly amazed that we don't a thread about it yet.
53 replies
Open
Valis2501 (2875 D (G))
11 Apr 15 UTC
Putin wrong again of course
http://i.imgur.com/87Pcu6V.gifv
7 replies
Open
yassem (2533 D)
06 Apr 15 UTC
Rolling stones
Am I wrong here?
19 replies
Open
JamesYanik (548 D)
11 Apr 15 UTC
Star Wars: The Original Trilogy vs Prequels
time to see which ones of you I hate
14 replies
Open
Mapu (362 D)
10 Apr 15 UTC
(+4)
Important Webdip Survey
I'm doing a non-sanctioned survey of how many people visit the site over a weekend. Please +1 this post so I can get an accurate count. I will then share my findings with the site admins to make improvements. Thanks!
26 replies
Open
Valis2501 (2875 D (G))
10 Apr 15 UTC
EOG for 7 pls
27 replies
Open
VashtaNeurotic (2394 D)
21 Mar 15 UTC
(+16)
MAFIA VII: Let’s Have JJ Abrams Direct It (The Winter of Websteros)
See inside for details.
3156 replies
Open
CommanderByron (863 D (S))
06 Apr 15 UTC
Mandatory Voting: Dicsuss
Is mandatory voting, as seen in Australia, good for a democratic society or counter-intuitive to the base beliefs of democracy? Discuss.
73 replies
Open
MaximillianTheFirst (0 D X)
05 Apr 15 UTC
(+1)
Westeros Diplomacy
http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/829950/game-thrones-diplomacy-variant

I can't be the only ASOIAF fan who wants this.
7 replies
Open
MadMarx (36299 D (G))
28 Mar 15 UTC
(+3)
R.I.P. MadMarx
(March 27, 2008 – March 27, 2015)

Eulogy / “End of webDiplomacy” within
132 replies
Open
JamesYanik (548 D)
07 Apr 15 UTC
Social Classes
Are social classes good? And I don't this turning to political discussion, I just want to know whether a concentration of wealth in a select few is good for society as a whole. Have we simply never seen social classes in an unabused system?
Marx proposed a total leveling of the social classes. It's an interesting notion in theory but it's difficult to see how it could work if implemented. Direct democracy?
JamesYanik (548 D)
07 Apr 15 UTC
The fundamental idea here is equality vs. competition, but once a group starts to pull way '1%' we get upset. Should our children be rewarded for parent's work? These are going to be some of the more serious issues that we need to face in the years to come, though for some reason I have a sneaky feeling that most people are being kept in a perpetual state of denial.
Randomizer (70 D)
07 Apr 15 UTC
Stalin came the closest to making a classless society by turning the Soviet Union into two classes. He was one class and everyone else was in the other.
JamesYanik (548 D)
07 Apr 15 UTC
and that totally worked :\
semck83 (229 D (B))
07 Apr 15 UTC
There's something of a difference between social class and economic class, so your question is ambiguous to begin with, I'd say.
fiedler (1293 D)
07 Apr 15 UTC
Social classes are inevitable, so its not really relevant whether good or bad
Jeff Kuta (2066 D)
07 Apr 15 UTC
Yeah, they earned it.

http://richkidsofinstagram.tumblr.com/
X3n0n (216 D)
07 Apr 15 UTC
It is hard work to be a rich kid.
bo_sox48 (5202 D Mod (G))
07 Apr 15 UTC
"I'm not rich, I'm upper middle class."
Gunfighter06 (224 D)
07 Apr 15 UTC
@ semck83

"There's something of a difference between social class and economic class, so your question is ambiguous to begin with, I'd say."

I agree that there is a difference between social class and economic class, but I would also argue that social class = economic class in modern Western (at least American) society. We define social class by personal wealth.

I would also argue that social classes don't really exist anymore (unless you tie it to wealth, as I stated above). Everyone has (some) inalienable rights in our society, regardless of economic class. Obviously, the extent of those rights is limited by wealth to an extent. For example, people listen to Donald Trump more than they would listen to a random liquor store clerk, so I could argue that Donald Trump's right to free speech is more powerful than the liquor store clerk's right to free speech. Also, transferable NFA-registered machine guns cost well above $10,000, which means that the rich have legal access to machine guns and the middle class/poor do not.
semck83 (229 D (B))
07 Apr 15 UTC
GF,

Those are reasonable points, although I think if you moved in some circles you would see a bit of a difference between social and economic class. Donald Trump might not be welcome at an upper crust Boston dinner party, because he's nouveau riche and rather gauche; whereas someone who grew up in that world and lost it all might. But you're right that these days in the US, this is probably restricted to ever shrinking circles.
abgemacht (1076 D (G))
07 Apr 15 UTC
(+1)
It's just like how on webDip you can have a lot of points but still be a filthy gunboater.
steephie22 (182 D (S))
07 Apr 15 UTC
Or like how you can be a heroic diplomat *cough* and still have but a few points.
phil_a_s (0 D X)
07 Apr 15 UTC
Confusingly, many people with actually negative net worth, simply because of the money they used to have, are still paid a lot of attention to. They appear to have a high social class, without having the money to go through with it. I'm not sure how economic class is defined though, could someone clear that up for me?
Crazy Anglican (720 D)
07 Apr 15 UTC
Economic class is just where you are related to others in society in terms of your income and accrued wealth. Income is what lots of people tend to look at, but accrued wealth is more important.
Gunfighter06 (224 D)
07 Apr 15 UTC
@ semck

I suppose you have a point there. There will always be a somewhat fine line between "old" money and "new" money. An NBA star wouldn't be particularly welcome at a charity gala for New York financial executives, just as a New York executive wouldn't be particularly welcome at an upper-class Hollywood dance club.

But ignoring the social difference between "old" money and "new" money at the very top (you did have a good point there), I would still argue that social class and economic class are one in the same for the "bottom" 90% of the Western population.
________

To answer the OP, I would argue that yes, social classes are a good thing. A civilized world fundamentally needs leaders and followers. PM Churchill was absolutely correct about socialism/communism resulting in an equal share of misery for everyone. As the old axiom goes: "We pretend to work and they pretend to pay us." In an ideal world, the lower classes would simply be a temporary "springboard" from which people could hit rock bottom and bounce back up into the middle classes. I see no reason why a white-collar guy shouldn't wash dishes for six months while he gets back on his feet. Alternatively, the lower classes should serve as quasi-punishment for stupid life choices. I see no reason why a drug addict should have a white-collar job or even healthcare. I realize that my views might be a little fucked up, but it's a hell of a lot better than the alternative.

I personally believe that everyone should be treated with a modicum of respect, regardless of their job. I had a lengthy conversation with an older used car salesman last week (I DESPISE used car salesmen; they are modern pariahs in my book), and I still called him "sir" until he told me to stop. Turns out that he used to be a relatively prosperous restaurant owner until his landlord screwed him over and put him out of business. I use "sir/ma'am" when I talk to homeless people too. A little respect goes a long way, and I have a basic level of respect for human dignity, regardless of social class.

I don't entirely *like* the idea of economic status being the primary determining factor of social class, but I concede that it is the most practical method and one of the more reliable methods. Hard work, common sense, a fair amount of brains, and taking initiative can still take you from lower class to upper class in our society. I've got a buddy from a poor family who joined up with the pipefitters when he graduated high school. Now he's clearing six figures a year on 40 hours a week, all on a high school diploma and with zero student loan debt. Another close friend (from a "lower" economic status) of mine joined the fire department right out of high school. He's not making as much as my pipefitter buddy, but he's still making a hell of a lot more money than his parents and he loves his job.

I would argue that the "middle class" is a happy and comfortable place to be, and as such is a worthy goal for any person. I'm middle class and the wealth distribution gap really doesn't bother me that much. Personally, I think that an end to corporate welfare and a closing of all tax loopholes would work wonders on the wealth gap, but that's a discussion for another thread. Rich guys can afford to pay top-tier accountants to squirrel their way out of the majority of their taxes, and that's admittedly fucked up.

In an ideal world, I would like to see a Starship Troopers-esque meritocracy, in which only honorably discharged veterans and those who have completed federal/state service are enfranchised and able to hold public office, but that's nothing more than a pipe dream when only a fraction of the population is either current military or honorably discharged veterans.
Puddle (443 D)
07 Apr 15 UTC
@Gunfighter I'm always leery of using the lower classes as a "sort of quasi-punishment' because there's never been a society in which there are more higher class-people (even middle) than lower. I'm also not entirely sure there's a viable socio-economic model that could alleviate that. Further for many people of next to lowest- or middle-class a fall to the lowest class may not be a fall they could recover from. Not to mention the fact that most people stay in whatever class they were born in, and even if someone of great "worth" (lots of natural talent, intelligence, etc) was born in the lowest class, it is already known to be increasingly difficult to work their way out of that class and turning that class of people's life into quasi-punishment is not going to make that any easier.

If they made decisions that are truly unacceptable to society then they are criminals and belong in prison. If they just made decisions that just don't lead to economic success, by what right do you punish them? Punishing the poor makes being poor immoral and being wealthy moral by contrast.

Also I honestly can not think of a policy more likely to result in severe civil instability and possible outright revolt and revolution than intentionally and (publicily if a democracy) making the poorest and largest segment of the population's life a quasi-punishment.

Therefore I don't think it's appropriate to make the lowest class exist in a state of quasi-punishment.
Randomizer (70 D)
07 Apr 15 UTC
"In an ideal world, I would like to see a Starship Troopers-esque meritocracy, in which only honorably discharged veterans and those who have completed federal/state service are enfranchised and able to hold public office, but that's nothing more than a pipe dream when only a fraction of the population is either current military or honorably discharged veterans."

Here in the US, President Bush II is considered more patriotic for failing to finish his Air Force Reserve commitment than a US Senator that lost limbs fighting in Vietnam. Image versus substance is a flaw in how people fit into classes here.
Gunfighter06 (224 D)
07 Apr 15 UTC
@ Puddle

"Further for many people of next to lowest- or middle-class a fall to the lowest class may not be a fall they could recover from."

Rather than attempting to "move" everyone from the lower classes "up", I propose policies that would merely ensure that upward mobility is a reasonable possibility for sufficiently motivated individuals. I believe that there will *always* be rich people and poor people, regardless of government system. Even in the heyday of the Soviet Union, there were still plenty of poor guys and a few rich guys. To that end, I believe that injustice does not exist unless it is genuinely impossible/improbable for those in the lower classes to make a serious push "up" to a higher class on an individual basis.

"Punishing the poor makes being poor immoral and being wealthy moral by contrast."

It's important to recognize that "poor" is a subjective term, even if you define it with an arbitrary threshold such as a poverty line. The poorest, sorriest hobo in the US with a $20 bill in his pocket is still richer than a sizable chunk of the world. In less abstract terms, I think something like 90%-95% of the US population has a TV, air conditioning, a cell phone, and the net worth of a Nigerian king. Hardly starving on the street.

Furthermore, I stand by my use of the phrase "quasi-punishment". I believe that in this day and age, poverty is usually a consequence of bad or mediocre decision-making, with a definitive multi-generational impact in many cases. Wealth can create a multi-generational family dynasty of power and opportunity. Conversely, poverty can create a family trend of misfortune and difficulty.

"intentionally and (publicily if a democracy) making the poorest and largest segment of the population's life a quasi-punishment."

There's nothing "intentional" about it. I'm *definitely* not advocating for a regressive tax system or reinforcing the wealth gap. I'm just pointing out my belief that a reasonable wealth gap is an acceptable price to pay for a stable multi-class society, on condition that upward class mobility is a reasonable possibility for any qualified individual.

On an individual basis, poverty has a cause. Frequently, that cause can be linked to a bad decision at one time or another, such as substance abuse, spousal abuse, or child abuse. On a multi-generational level, it could be as simple as getting in a car with your sketchy cousin instead of continuing on to military recruitment office. Have you ever noticed how the most fucked up homes tend to be the poorest homes?

In less "cold" terms, some people are just naturally unlucky, and sometimes fate just screws people over by making them poor and making it impossible to bust out.

Lower classes should be humane and livable but spartan. I'm tired of seeing people pay for candy and doughnuts with food stamps while they text on the $400 phone that was paid for with money that they should be spending on healthy food or maybe a better education for their kid.

Middle classes and upper classes should be readily accessible and comfortable.
steephie22 (182 D (S))
08 Apr 15 UTC
"Income is what lots of people tend to look at, but accrued wealth is more important."

Why?
Crazy Anglican (720 D)
08 Apr 15 UTC
Income only tells what money is coming in every month. Accrued wealth tells what you have done with the money that you have. It's the ability to invest that generally makes more money for you over time.
steephie22 (182 D (S))
08 Apr 15 UTC
I get that wealth generates income, but if you argument is that wealth is more important than income because wealth increases income, that seems like odd reasoning..

I suppose I know what you mean though. Income from investments is generally better than from paychecks.
Jeff Kuta (2066 D)
08 Apr 15 UTC
Working is for suckers. Owning is all that matters.

In a rentier capitalist system at any rate. :P Not something we should strive for as a society, though the 1% would disagree.
Crazy Anglican (720 D)
08 Apr 15 UTC
Wasn't really my point. My point was that income only gives you part of the picture. If you got your M.D. and start bringing in $600,000 a year, that's great. Yet if you owe $200,000 in student loans, go out and buy that expensive BMW & a house in the nicest neighborhood, that nice income can still not go very far.

Income kind of like the size of the pipe leading into a house. It really doesn't show how much water is in the bath tub.

Someone with a higher income could build wealth faster, but it doesn't always mean that they are building wealth at all. If the money goes out as fast (or faster) than it comes in, income doesn't really tell you much.
Gunfighter06 (224 D)
08 Apr 15 UTC
@ CA

Excellent point.
steephie22 (182 D (S))
08 Apr 15 UTC
So if you earn a couple of million per year but you spend all of it, you're still lower/working class even though you can at any time choose to make enough money for retirement in a short period of time?

If you keep buying expensive cars and what not, you can always sell them later as well.
Gunfighter06 (224 D)
08 Apr 15 UTC
Also a good point, but if you put that money on the futures market or in a timeshare, then it's going to evaporate a lot faster than a sports car.
steephie22 (182 D (S))
08 Apr 15 UTC
Are you merely working class if you spend all your money even if you earn a shitload of it, though?
Puddle (443 D)
10 Apr 15 UTC
The reason people say income is a less applicable metric than wealth is because of how income is categorized in these semi-universal calculators. Interest accrued and stock dividends typically are not counted as income but sometimes they are, things like increased value of wealth or non-liquid assets typically are not.

So if I own a whole bunch of rental properties and within the course of that year I use profits from those properties to improve my existing properties causing an increase in their value, only the revenue would be counted as income, not the increase in the value of my property.

Typically income is talking about wages. Although some wages, like those of doctors, allow people to become part of the upper class, typically the most powerful people, both politically and financially speaking are those who have no "income." In particular the people who account for the greatest concentration of wealth of people who are not earning a wage of any sort.
Octavious (1712 D)
10 Apr 15 UTC
Class is a belief system. If the people that play a role in your game of life believe you're working class, you are working class. Simple as that. Factors that influence what people believe include accent, education, wealth, income, family etc etc, with different people being more strongly influenced by different factors.

Ultimately it doesn't matter one iota.
mendax (321 D)
10 Apr 15 UTC
People are very, very good at arguing that the things that they've benefited from are actually irrelevant, if only people had a different attitude.
Octavious (1712 D)
10 Apr 15 UTC
Mendax raises a good point. Being working class I have benefited hugely from being given thousands of pounds in the form of government grants and hardship bursaries to help pay for university, and having a lower standard to meet in order to get in. I have also benefitted from going to a real school with a well rounded education instead of those hideous single sex boarding schools that have lessons on Saturday that the poor posh sods get sent to.
Well come the revolution brothers........................................ and sisters......................


33 replies
taipan (100 D)
09 Apr 15 UTC
Surrendering and deleting finished games from the list of games
I am now playing here for about a month and have not been able to find out : (1) how to surrender from a game and (2) how to delete finished games from the list of games I am playing. Can someone help me please ? It must be very easy I suppose ! ;-) LOL
5 replies
Open
Mapu (362 D)
09 Apr 15 UTC
Google Translate Game
I'm getting a Google Translate game going on vdip -- please check it out and join. Could be fun.
1 reply
Open
thdfrance (100 D)
09 Apr 15 UTC
Masters Weekend
Hoffman's 5 under after the first round, Schwartzel made the first eagle, what else does the weekend have in store?
9 replies
Open
bo_sox48 (5202 D Mod (G))
08 Apr 15 UTC
Tsarnaev Guilty
The verdict comes in quickly and justice is done. May he rot.

http://tinyurl.com/qf8s26p
52 replies
Open
yassem (2533 D)
08 Apr 15 UTC
(+1)
"Getting Myself McFired"
So I just read this.
http://www.vice.com/en_uk/read/getting-myself-mcfired
What an act of great bravery exposing the rotten core of capitalism, right?
18 replies
Open
orathaic (1009 D (B))
09 Apr 15 UTC
Right to be Forgotten vs Freedom of Speech
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CD37vwUD8Us
Discuss.
7 replies
Open
jbalcorn (429 D)
09 Apr 15 UTC
NSA Surveillance
How to get Americans to care that their government is engaging in illegal spying. www.youtube.com/watch?v=XEVlyP4_11M
1 reply
Open
Lanium (105 D)
08 Apr 15 UTC
JamesYanik: banned
Meta/No reply. Good riddance?
62 replies
Open
TheMinisterOfWar (509 D)
09 Apr 15 UTC
The Dutch are the pinnacle of evolution
http://news.sciencemag.org/biology/2015/04/did-natural-selection-make-dutch-tallest-people-planet

Science, so it's true.
1 reply
Open
Ges (292 D)
03 Apr 15 UTC
Thoughts on Modern Diplomacy II?
Hello, I'm returning to WebDipWorld after an absence of several years. I am interested to know what the community thinks of this Modern Dip II variant. Is it enjoyable? Fairly balanced? (I don't expect perfection from a variant . . . )

Thanks in advance for your thoughts!
28 replies
Open
Yellowjacket (835 D (B))
01 Apr 15 UTC
The waitress breasts
As above, below.
110 replies
Open
goldfinger0303 (3157 D Mod)
06 Apr 15 UTC
(+1)
Game 3 of The Leagues is up
Links are all here https://sites.google.com/site/phpdiplomacytournaments/The-php-League/leagues-winter-2015

PW's are all teams Duke has beaten in March Madness. No spaces. Sorry I'm not as creative as the Star Wars themed one.
25 replies
Open
2ndWhiteLine (3375 D (B))
08 Apr 15 UTC
Lost Day
At 4:53 and 42 seconds today (if you use American date and a 24 hour clock) the time and date will officially be 4-8-15-16-23-42.
9 replies
Open
EmmaGoldman (1001 D)
08 Apr 15 UTC
(+1)
new game
Classic Game 25; needs 3 more players, its a p-p-s.c., 50 bet, and it will be fun!
7 replies
Open
chluke (10280 D (G))
05 Apr 15 UTC
Building in occupied center that is simultaneously disband
Can you build in a home territory occupied by another country's unit IF simultaneously during that build phase the occupying unit disbands?
9 replies
Open
Crazy Anglican (720 D)
08 Apr 15 UTC
In-Game Mute button
If you mute everyone in a gunboat game. Will they ever know you did it?
4 replies
Open
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