Everybody is fringe except the Ludavitcher cult.

"He who wants to live must fight, and he who does not want to fight in this world where eternal struggle is the law of life has no right to exist."

Mein Kampf

And

''Finally, it may not be a logical deduction, but to my imagination it is far more satisfactory to look at such instincts as the young cuckoo ejecting its foster-brothers, ants making slaves, the larvae of ichneumonidae feeding within the live bodies of caterpillars, not as specially endowed or created instincts, but as small consequences of one general law leading to the advancement of all organic beings--namely, multiply, vary, let the strongest live and the weakest die.''

Full Title is The Origin of Species by means of Natural Selection or, the Preservation of Favoured Races in the Struggle for Life. (Page 279)


In my view Hitler was an excellent politician, to deny the Church would be suicidal in terms of initial electoral support and later continued support. Support for the church was a front for him.

There is more evidence of paganism than christianity at the black heart of Nazism, particularly arounfd Himlar and the SS.

Putin you are precious. So Shatmar, Shas, and one reform rabbi constitute the BULK of judaism. Excellent. You misrepresent what i say yet again to get out of admitting you are wrong. I want to hear it. You were caught in a ridiculous claim. Admit it.

@ fullhamish: I didn't ignore it, I just missed it. Lots of tl;dr here. Still haven't found it :P Restate?

@semck:

If God can't perform miracles, then what's the point of religion? Is not eternal life in the kingdom of heaven a miracle? This is really the only miracle left that science cannot challenge, so why then, would god, who made me in his image, also wire me to be incapable of believing in him without evidence? While at the same time I am a reasonably moral and decent person, I am condemned to hell for the crime of logic, a genetic and environmental predisposition which I am unfortunately unable to overcome.

Alternatively, if god CAN perform miracles, then why is prayer statistically useless in every application? I believe the bible actually DOES swear in several locations (Matthew, Mark, John) that god WILL answer prayers if you but ask and believe. It sounds to me like god IS on the hook. So does he have some special plan for amputees? Is that REALLY what you believe? Isn't it much more likely that he can't do anything for them, because miracles do not happen, and God does not exist in any real world sense?

OK, I'm not an atheist (or maybe I am in the spyman sense), but all I'm saying is that if god can't be troubled to make himself in any way known in THIS world, why should I concern myself with biblical opinions on how I ought to live my life? Not saying there's nothing to be learned from the bible, but it condones a lot of nasty stuff too (misogyny, slavery, rape, murder). I'll take the good lessons and ignore the rest, tyvm, and if god wants more, he has only to ask. I've already looked for him, and the answers he may-or-may-not have given me aren't as good as the ones I came up with on my own.

@fulhamish - "but as small consequences of one general law leading to the advancement of all organic beings--namely, multiply, vary, let the strongest live and the weakest die." - I've seen that quote used like that before. You make one of the basic mistakes in reading Darwin there by seeing that quote as prescriptive rather than descriptive.

Origin of Species wasn't even about humans, doofus. "Race" referred any gradient of species. He talked about races of cabbages for christ's sake.

"In my view Hitler was an excellent politician, to deny the Church would be suicidal in terms of initial electoral support and later continued support. Support for the church was a front for him.

There is more evidence of paganism than christianity at the black heart of Nazism, particularly arounfd Himlar and the SS."

Oh but of course. Hitler's long list of speeches talking about Christianity is just him pandering for votes, even when was writing this stuff in prison or making speeches in the 1920s. And nevermind that masses were held in memorial for him or that Franco said he was defending Christianity.

"My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice... And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people."

"I was not in agreement with the sharp anti-Semitic tone, but from time to time I read arguments which gave me some food for thought.

At all events, these occasions slowly made me acquainted with the man and the movement, which in those days guided Vienna's destinies: Dr. Karl Lueger and the Christian Social Party.

-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

"The man and the movement seemed 'reactionary' in my eyes. My common sense of justice, however, forced me to change this judgment in proportion as I had occasion to become acquainted with the man and his work; and slowly my fair judgment turned to unconcealed admiration. Today, more than ever, I regard this man as the greatest German mayor of all times.

-Adolf Hitler speaking about Dr. Karl Lueger of the Christian Social Party (Mein Kampf)

How many of my basic principles were upset by this change in my attitude toward the Christian Social movement!

My views with regard to anti-Semitism thus succumbed to the passage of time, and this was my greatest transformation of all.

-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

So here we have Hitler confessing that what converted him to anti-Semitism was the Christian Social Movement in Vienna. But I'm sure that's just pandering...

Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord.

-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

Certainly we don't have to discuss these matters with the Jews, the most modern inventors of this cultural perfume. Their whole existence is an embodied protest against the aesthetics of the Lord's image.

-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

Once again the songs of the fatherland roared to the heavens along the endless marching columns, and for the last time the Lord's grace smiled on His ungrateful children.

-Adolf Hitler reflecting on World War I (Mein Kampf)

To them belong, not only the truly great statesmen, but all other great reformers as well. Beside Frederick the Great stands Martin Luther as well as Richard Wagner.

-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

What we must fight for is to safeguard the existence and reproduction of our race and our people, the sustenance of our children and the purity of our blood, the freedom and independence of the fatherland, so that our people may mature for the fulfillment of the mission allotted it by the creator of the universe.

-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

But if out of smugness, or even cowardice, this battle is not fought to its end, then take a look at the peoples five hundred years from now. I think you will find but few images of God, unless you want to profane the Almighty.

-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

While both denominations maintain missions in Asia and Africa in order to win new followers for their doctrine-- an activity which can boast but very modest success compared to the advance of the Mohammedan faith in particular-- right here in Europe they lose millions and millions of inward adherents who either are alien to all religious life or simply so their own ways. The consequences, particularly from a moral point of view, are not favorable.

-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf) Hitler lamenting the weakening of Christianity in Europe.

The great masses of people do not consist of philosophers; precisely for the masses, faith is often the sole foundation of a moral attitude. The various substitutes have not proved so successful from the standpoint of results that they could be regarded as a useful replacement for previous religious creeds. But if religious doctrine and faith are really to embrace the broad masses, the unconditional authority of the content of this faith is the foundation of all efficacy.

-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

Mafia, I think that we almost agree. My point was not that the ideas of Darwin inevitablty led to Aushwitz, but rather provided the scientific justification for it. The ideas moved from Darwin through Huxley (It may be quite true that some negroes are better than some white men; but no rational man, cognizant of the facts, believes that the average negro is the equal, still less the superior, of the average white man) and Heackel (he of the forged embryology drawings) etc. and the industrialised slaughter of the Holocaust would likely have been imposible without this perverted scientific justification lying in the background.

Fullhamish what exactly are your views on evolution?
Do you believe in evolution?
Do you believe that humans share a common ancestor with monkeys (and primates, and other mammals etc)?
You said earlier in the thread that you are an agnostic so I guess you are not a Biblical creationist. Regarding life on Earth what theory do you subscribe too?

I think that seems unlikely fulhamish. I think even without Darwin, nazism would have proceeded the same way. People were already racist and had "scientific" justification for it without Darwin's or Huxley's help.

@ Santa, your grandstanding got annoying a long time ago. Nothing you've presented indicates I'm wrong, although I could be. All you've done is provide a Lubavitcher quote. I heard from Eddie Tabash that this was what led him to atheism, the fact that rabbis were telling him that his relatives died in the Holocaust because of divine punishment. Maybe it's not as prevalent as Tabash made it seem, but the doctrine of exile being a punishment for sins against Jewish law seems to be quite widespread. And other people like Jewish studies professors like Bernard Levinson have been quoted as having said that this theological view was being propagated by many groups because there weren't any other good theological explanations for why the Holocaust occurred.

At spyman my views on evolution are pretty cose to those of this guy:

The Language of God: A Scientist Presents Evidence for Belief by Francis Collins.

He is a pretty reasonable sceintist too:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francis_Collins

@ mafia here we disagree. No doubt the brutality would have been hoorendous without Darwin, but I maintain that the industrialised slaughter could not have occured without the long-stop of scientific justification. As you say Darwin's ideas were indeed very powerful and contained many racist elements in them (even granted that they were a product of his time). Maybe we should agree to differ on this one?

" but I maintain that the industrialised slaughter could not have occured without the long-stop of scientific justification. "

Of course, proof be damned, and the long history of Christian theologians writing about race war and racial extermination be damned.

But please use the "agree to disagree" ploy to exit the debate before you have to deign to actually produce an argument. Engage in character assassination of three brilliant scientists, then retreat.

According to Wikipedia Francis Collins is a theistic evolutuionist (sorry I have not read his book). And theistic evolution is apparently this:
Theistic evolution or evolutionary creation is a concept that asserts that classical religious teachings about God are compatible with the modern scientific understanding about biological evolution

So you are an evolutionist?
It might be simpler if you just give a brief précis of your own beliefs.
Evolutionist ? Yes or no
If evolutionist, if not natural selection then what?

Putin the fact that in searching for an explanation for the unexplicable some Jews reach for some disconcerting conclusions surely should not surprise you. It is really nasty to extend this like a whitewash brush to the entirity/majority of Jewish people as you do. At best I accuse you of a lack of empathy, at worst........In any event you seize on an appaling tragedy and the victim's attempt to rationalise it for you own debating ends. You are indeed a very nasty little sociopath.

Santa plus 1

I don't give a fuck if it got annoying or not. You heard from one athiest with every incentive to demean the Jewish religion that a rabbi told him the Holocaust victims deserve this. From this you make the assertion that the bulk of Rabbis preach this and support it by cherry picking information from various sources. That gets annoying. If the Shas view was so popular why did your own article state that the Prime Minister and Rabbis throughout Israel chastise him over it? Why did you leave out the word controversial when you cherry picked that quote about the reform Rabbi? Thank you for demonstrating your facts-be-damned approach to argument and your willingness to make assertions with no prior knowledge. How many wikipedia and other web pages you skipped over because they directly disputed your claims we won't know

Putin do you say Huxley and Haekel were brilliant scientists. Did i read this correctly?

@ Mafia - My experience has shown that most 'intellectual' objections to the possibility of the existence of God are emotionally based. If you consider yourself to have an open mind, then in all academic honesty, it's a possibility that you should consider.

@yellow, thanks for the response.

"If God can't perform miracles, then what's the point of religion?"

Well, first of all, I didn't say God CAN'T perform miracles. Obviously I don't believe this. What I said was, He doesn't have to perform miracles whenever I demand it. The point of religion, or Christianity, anyway, is to become reconciled to God because we must.

"While at the same time I am a reasonably moral and decent person, I am condemned to hell for the crime of logic, a genetic and environmental predisposition which I am unfortunately unable to overcome."

You are condemned to hell for your sins, of which disbelief is only one. As for "the crime of logic," you are, with all respect, a rebel against God who has no interest at all in finding out that God does exist. God has made Himself perfectly clear, and you rely on His goodness every day.

It sounds like you have some respect for logic and science. Why? Certainly you can't support induction or logic in your world view, or anything other knowledge about the world. You can't offer me a shred of support (in your worldview) for believing the sun will rise tomorrow (which you believe). Of course, yes, it has in the past, and the laws of physics have operated in the past, but why will they tomorrow? Why does the past have anything to do with the future? You can only make bare assumptions here, unsupported by anything in your own world view to lend them even the shadow of probability.

So the logic and reasoning you point to are in fact just a heap of rubble without God. You are assuming Him from the first even talking about them, for if your mind did not come from the God who upholds the world, what likelihood is there that its rules reflect any lasting reality about the world?

Now, you refer to Mark 11 and other passages. Yes, out of global context, some of those passages appear to say what you suggest. In the context of Christ's teaching as a whole, He clearly has something else in mind. (And recall He was speaking to His apostles, who were familiar with His teaching as a whole). See the I John retelling for the beginnings of an explanation ("according to God's will").

Regards.

Parenthetically, especially @yellow, I have to get work done today, so I'll be absent from the conversation for a few hours. I don't mean to run off from responding to any of my posts, and I'll do so later.

"It is really nasty to extend this like a whitewash brush to the entirity/majority of Jewish people as you do. At best I accuse you of a lack of empathy, at worst........In any event you seize on an appaling tragedy and the victim's attempt to rationalise it for you own debating ends. You are indeed a very nasty little sociopath."

I said rabbis you illiterate twit. Since when were rabbis "majority of Jewish people". According to a Harris poll, the majority of Jews don't believe in god. That's how well respected rabbinical opinion is.

Re the Hitler quotes: It's pretty easy to see that he didn't know who Jesus was even as he was using his name to try to gain credibility among the gullible. Jesus himself--Yeshua, meaning "God Saves," was Jewish. He read from the Hebrew texts in public, he spoke the common language of the time (Aramaic), he might have spoken Greek since he worked with his dad as a 'Tekton' -builder- often translated as "carpenter," and the Greek speakers were mostly the ones who had money to pay for construction at the time. And we have his genealogies on his mom's side and his adoptive dad's. So let's not consider that Hitler spoke for genuine Christians in any way, please.

@ Spyman. I have said before that Natural Selection is fine as far as it goes. When it martialled as an explanatory tool in human behaviour etc. I shave grave doubts. If, therefore, it does not expalin these things what else might be at work? Perhaps this might be the divine? That is the quick answer to your question, it is extremely brief but we have gone there before I think.

And specifically yes I do agree that we are descended from the apes etc. and that the Earth is 4.6 billion years old etc..Does this help?

I have heard your views on human behavior and natural selection before, but I was not sure where you stood on evolution. After reading the discussion about Darwinisn and Nazism I was starting to get the impression that you were opposed to the theory of natural selection. But it turns out you like most of us are a Darwinist after all.
I thought maybe if you did believe in evolution but not natural selection you might have some interesting ideas - I was curious.

" If the Shas view was so popular why did your own article state that the Prime Minister and Rabbis throughout Israel chastise him over it?"

Where in that article did it say 'rabbis throughout Israel' chastised him? No where? Ok. I'm glad you're such a brilliant factchecker and internet researcher.

''I thought maybe if you did believe in evolution but not natural selection you might have some interesting ideas - I was curious. ''

Spyman are you perhaps refering to Lewinton? If so he is a very interesting guy indeed.

What Darwin got wrong - http://www.sciy.org/2010/05/16/what-darwin-got-wrong-by-jerry-fodor-and-massimo-piattelli-palmarini-review-by-richard-c-lewinton/

Have you read it, if so what did you think?

''I said rabbis you illiterate twit.'' Did you really?

Satmar is one of the prominent sects of Hasidics in the US (not to mention Hungary, which has a large Jewish population compared to the rest of east/central Europe). Kinda odd to claim I'm ignoring Hasidic opinion while you claim that the Satmars are irrelevant fringe people.

And

''And I guess "mipenei hata'einu" is only a Haredi belief, eh?''

Putin you are the liar I am afraid and you forgot this bit:

''Putin the fact that in searching for an explanation for the unexplicable some Jews reach for some disconcerting conclusions surely should not surprise you. ''

Putin do you say Huxley and Haekel were brilliant scientists. Did i read this correctly?

I await your response.

Yes, Jesus was Jewish, so that somehow negates the New Testament and passages like this.

"1 Thessalonians 2:13-16(KJV) – (13) For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe. (14) For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they have of the Jews: (15) Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men: (16) Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost."