@TC: I don't appreciate the personal attacks, they are unwarranted and rude.

Even if you can't be arrested for wearing a bikini, women are arrested for breastfeeding in public... ( http://www.cfcamerica.org/?option=com_content&view=article&catid=3:news&id=431:chicago-woman-arrested-for-breastfeeding-in-public&Itemid=96 )

And you never addressed what I said about women being HARASSED for being dressed in a bikini. I'm serious, a woman walking down the street in a bikini would have every guy indecently harrassing her for sexual favours.

And remember, all societies have dress codes. American society can have pretty strict dress codes, for instance the fact that it's a ridiculously huge taboo for women to bear their breasts in public (and that IS arrestable), meanwhile, in many european countries that's considered "okay", at least in certain contexts.

As for "I also like the way an individual who isn't a Saudi Woman, Don Q in this instance, amazingly knows the priorities of Saudi Women. "

I was quoting a SAUDI, I have met muslim women on many occasions as well. All of them, without exception, wore the hijab out of CHOICE. It is part of their religious beliefs that they should dress modestly. Likewise, their male compatriots believe it is religiously required to not shave their beard. All religious muslim men maintain a beard, and often wear a cap of some kind. All religious muslim women wear a hijab.

Is the Catholic Church tyrranical for requiring nuns to wear habits, and head scarves, and requiring priests to wear robes? Are businesses tyrannical for requiring business atire, including impractical things like ties and high heeled shoes?

Different societies have different ideas of how a person should and shouldn't dress. In some countries they are more permissive then others. In the United States, in 1901, a woman was arrested for wearing THIS http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Annette_Kellerman.jpg Was the United States tyranical back then?

Have a read of http://www.islamfortoday.com/hijabcanada4.htm , it's about women talking about the hijab and why they wear it.

An excerpt: Syed emphasizes that a major plus is that people actually evaluate her on who she is and not on her beauty or clothing. "It keeps me protected from the fashion industry. The hijab liberates you from the media, brainwashing you into, Buy this, buy that, you're supposed to look like this," she says. "It allows me to be who I am. I don't have to worry about being popular through buying things that are 'cool'."

Don Q, you bore me.

*shrug* I guess you're a troll.

Why do people think they can keep posting preposterous generalities and isolated incidents in rebuttal to such a well documented oppression of female freedom as exists in Saudi Arabia,

It is completely warrented to call you out as an utter idiot Don Q.

Posting a one-of-a-kind story about a women arrested for breast feeding and then trying to generalize that into a justification of Wahhabist oppression of women makes you look like a total moron.

How could anyone with common sense even posts such a ludicrous line of reasoning.
I have never run into such a collection of mentally handicapped individuals in my life.
What do you people do for a living, collect food stamps and unemployment checks or do you work in government jobs where you can't get fired for being so stupid?

It is just amazing. I know you don't work successfully in the private sector. That is an absolute given.

Trying do downplay the Wahhabist oppression of women in Mecca with a whitewashed lie "Different societies have different ideas of how a person should and shouldn't dress" is basically just revolting.

Nuns join the Catholic church out of choice you blathering fool.
What kind of mentality thinks that comparing the religious garb of a member of a voluntary order is a valid point when talking about Wahhabist oppression of women in Mecca.

Simply unbelievably stupid.

I keep wondering why fools like Don Q change the subject to whether or not the handful of Saudi women he has met volutnarily wear anything.

I guess it is because he can't deal with the reality that my point, a woman can't wear a bikinin and walk down the street in Mecca, demonstrates the Medieveal misogyny in Mecca today.

Don't worry though. I won't let your idiot attempts at changing the subject, or your moronic argument insinuating equivalence.

What is truly and utterly repulsive is reading the thought processes of Neanderthal men who don't recognize the reprehensible nature of Mecca's treatment of woman.

God I'm glad I never encounter such repulsive people in my real life.

I think you have a lot of valid points, and I have to agree that most of my points are a bit tenuous. I think you could consider a society's attitude and permissiveness towards clothing as a general barometer for that society's liberality, and I was a bit stupid not to see it.

I made a lot of unfounded points, and I sincerely apologise if I offended you in any way.

As for our employment status, most of us are unemployed, alas, how else would we have so much time to play Diplomacy ;)

I misread a lot of what you said and got a bit hot under the collar. I really am sorry to have annoyed you.

oh hes gonna twist the dagger on that one

I do not consider any societies viewpoint when it comes to denying women equal rights and station is society. It is simply wrong. As I said earlier in this thread relativism is a corrupt approach to such questions. I reject such sophism and instead applaud the Socratic concept of timeless moral imperatives and equal rights is one of them. Wahhabist Mecca is a glaring contradiction to this moral imperative and I will continual denounce any point of view that argues it is not.

No apologies are necessary. I have no idea who you are and will never meet you.

No, it's very important to me to apologise. When I make a mistake, I like to own up to it. I made a mistake, and I plan to own up to it.

However, given how obviously correct you are, what's the point in even having this thread?

You have a confusing concept of cyberspace, but to each his own.

Don Q, while you are apologizing could you apologize for this too?

Saudi woman arrested after defying driving ban.

Saudi authorities detained a female activist who uploaded a video of herself behind the wheel of a car on to YouTube, in a campaign to overturn a ban on female drivers in the deeply conservative kingdom.

More than 600,000 people have now watched the video, a seemingly mundane scene where Manal al-Sharif, 32, is seen chatting to a female friend as she drives around the eastern city of Khobar.

But the images were anything but mundane in Saudi Arabia, where religious police are charged with ensuring rigid observance of social mores, which include women covering up in public, and no mingling by unrelated members of the opposite sex.

Ms Sharif was initially arrested on Saturday and released after six hours, fellow activists said police came to her home around 3am yesterday morning to take her into detention again.

Ms Sharif, who learned to drive in the United States, has started a campaign through Facebook calling for women to be taught to drive and urging those with international licences to get behind the wheel from 17 June.

Saudi Arabia is the only country in the world which bars women from driving. Although no law forbids it, women are denied driving licences, effectively rendering it illegal. Instead, they must rely on hired drivers, taxis, or male relatives to drive them.

Debate on the driving issue is vibrant, and Saudi women have mounted campaigns to put pressure on the government. Officials have signalled previously that the ban may be lifted, vague pledges that are never followed through.

Religious conservatives say female drivers would inevitably result in an erosion of moral values. But Ms Sharif ridicules such opposition, saying that she is much more vulnerable alone on a street than she would be if she had her own car to drive.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/saudi-woman-arrested-after-defying-driving-ban-2287817.html

Out of interest, Tettle, what is the point to all of this? I can just about comprehend that you see some value in the near constant stream of US domestic political dribble you pump into the forum on a daily basis, but dedicating this much time to saying that the Saudis are sexist is much more of a mystery.

I find it hard to believe that the plight of the women folk of Mecca is an issue particularly close to your heart (I've I'm wrong and you're a leading international campaigner then I will be the first to appologise), and I find it almost as unlikely that it is disguised Muslim bashing on the "something rotten in the heart of Islam" theme. Perhaps a desperate effort to regain some credibility on the forum by having at least one thread that you can point to where you were right about something?

Enlighten me!

@TC: You're preaching to choir man, we all know about this.

Again, when, as ypou know, you are completely correct, is there any point in continuing this thread?

The point of all of this Octavious is that the Wahhadis in Mecca have created about as Medieval, Neanderthal, and misogynistic society as exists on the face of the earth in the 21st century and I think it is one of the most important issues on the planet today.

As far as what you like to read and don't like to read on the board I guess you think that I should care? I don't. If you don't like what I post mute me. I'm also sorry to add to what must be an infinitive list of what is a mystery to you.

If you had daughters you would find it near and dear to your heart, if you had a brain like me. What in the world would I care about credibility in this forum. I read the most innane, stupid, idiotic, ramblings of fantasy and drivel from the 18-28 crowd that dominates this forum and also the preposterous delusions of the marxists, communists, and big government statists as well.

The main point of this thread for me was to post something as simple and irrefutable as the statement "Could a woman walk down the street in Mecca in a bikini? If this couldn't happen then something is wrong with the people and society in Mecca," and then watch the relativists on this site rise up and completely discredit themselves by defending this modern incarnation of Medieval misogyny.

I doubt if the enlightened you at all because you seem about as dense and inflexible mentally as the core of a neutron star.

Don Q, you forgot to apologize again. Why is that?

So your motivation to start up this thread was to bait foolish moral relativists? I think this is an admirable goal. But all of us agree with you that Saudi Arabia is a misogynistic stone age hell hole where women have no control over their lives.

We're all agreeing with you. You're right, and we're right, because we're all saying the same thing. If you can not see comprehend that fact then clearly we are writing poorly, and I apologise for that, at least on my part.

None of us wish to defend what is perhaps the most morally reprehensible country on the planet.

I would prefer that women in Saudi Arabia could live lives just like women in our own country, to be free to exhibit themselves as they like, to have sex with as many men as they like. Further more I think it's a sin that there are women in our countries that still do not embrace our liberal principles by insisting on covering themselves, in a pseudo religious manner. Women should be free to feel complemented by the fact that men find them attractive and leer at them. In fact, they should take pride in this fact.

The very epitome of women in our society are those we have chosen to elevate by depicting on billboards and magazine covering, and only depressed, fundamentalist religous nutjobs would think otherwise.

I think we are of the same mind on this manner, your words have inspired me to have a total conversion.

You seem incredibly uninformed Don Q. North Korea is easily the most morally reprehensible country on the planet.
I would prefer that women enjoy exactly the same rights that men have period.
Also you miss the other aspect of my posts, what makes Mecca so despicable, and of course it is Wahhadist Islam.
Islam is a fine religion, but just like Christianity has its Terry Jones nutjobs and the corrupters of the Bible who protest at funerals Islam is cursed with probably the most dangerous, murderous sect of extremists that exists in any religion, the Saudi Wahhadists.

You seem quite bothered by women's sexual equality. A lot of insecure men are like that. If you want some help I could recommend some good therapists.

As far as allowing women the freedom to choose any path of feminity they want you seem to have a problem again by looking down your nose at women who grace billboards and magazines.

You have a lot of issues dealing with femininity and equality for women Don Q. I'm glad they are out in the open now.

I would suggest a simply philosophy, women get completely equal rights to men in society and women are free to emphasize any part of their being that they want, the intellectual side/the sexual side/ or any combination of the two that they choose.

I can't wait until that happens because I enjoy all parts of the female of the species from their brilliant minds down to their exquisite toes.

No, I think those women who are on billboards are quite justly idolised by society at large.

We can talk at length about the mental, the ephemeral, but how much is that real?

The only thing that is truly real is that which is physical, and those who can shape themselves towards physical perfection are justly revered above all.

Ours is truly the greatest society. Other societies seek to prevent women from advertising themselves, from taking their pride of place, ours is truly the most spectacular by putting women on a pedestal, at the physical centre of our attention!

A trap for relativists? Really? Tettle, you're treating this site as if it's a miniture version of Washinton. I can almost imagine you having fantasies of outmanouvering Democrats and using finely tuned political nouse to shove America ever closer to your inspired view. But bad news, old chap, it ain't. The remarks of the "relativists" aren't going to be discredited or even remembered. The people of this forum, who you seem to both dispise and need the respect of, will simply see this as Tettleton going off on one again.

You are the personification of all that is wrong with the right. There is some truth hidden in a lot of what you say in your posts, but is surrounded by so much spin and smugness that none of the message ever gets through. It is because of people like you that so many of middle America feel forced to vote for the likes of Obama and Clinton. Good God, man, you could say the sky was blue and people would argue against you because you would have managed to say it in such a way to put people's backs up. If i didn't know better I would say with certainty that you are a left winger on a mission to do as much damage to the right as humanly possible.

HA. This wasn't a trap for relativists, he said earlier in the thread that it was an analogy about the power of the state (his bread and butter). That revelation fell completely flat because frankly it was weak, and the people on the forum didn't agree Saudis are inherently inferior because of their misogynistic customs. So now he has shifted gears and said this was all a "trap" for relativists.

so you wont answer the questions then.

Give up guys! This guy is never wrong!

Don Q, I'm sorry you are so frustrated, but because I am right on this issue and you are wrong does not support your declaration that I am never one. One thing I try not to do is be wrong so I don't bother defending the misogyny in Mecca like you did, but to each his own.

You still didn't finish apologizing.

Thucy, if you ask an intelligent question I will gladly answer it. What do you seek enlightenment on young man?

Octavious, you certainly aren't aware of this because most individuals as self-centered as yourself aren't, but what I post is really none of your business. I'm not on "Octavious.com" now am I? Furthermore, if you don't like what I post you can mute me, but of course you won't.

You are one of these individuals who lacks self-confidence in their own world view and beliefs and when someone comes along and points out the glaring contradictions in them you lash out.

What is my proof of this, if I am as wrong you claim I am then everyone with a brain would recognize it.

Of course your problem is you know I'm not so you want to silence, ridicule, berate, and anything else you can think of to keep from having my posts on this board.

Free speech isn't something that is important to individuals like you at all.
Do you hear me calling for your posts to end. If I don't want to read what you have to say I would simply mute you and move on. I've done it to scores of individuals on this board.

I like to see your exercise in insecurity personally. If you were secure in your own beliefs what I have to say wouldn't bother you at all. In fact you would mute me because you don't want to waste your time on a troll or someone arrogant.

But alas you don't, for exactly the reasons I just laid out.

So now Don Q it is "just" for "society" to idolize women on billboards?
Just has nothing to do with what people idolize to begin with.
What individuals idolize is up to them.
As far as what society says I would say that Barbara Steisand, Hilary Clinton, and Michelle Obama are most idolized.

You just can't get past the fact that it is wrong for a society like the Wahhadists in Mecca to deny a woman the right to walk down the street in a bikini.
I won't let you off the hook for that corrupt inability either.

Am I wrong about Mecca? I certainly don't think so.
Am I wrong about Obama losing in 2012. I certainly don't think so.
Am I wrong about the inability of government to create self-sustainable jobs more effectively than the private sector. I certainly don't think so.
Am I wrong about the stifling effect that Obamacare, regulation, and the massive uncertainty created by Obama's administration stifling job creation. I certainly don't think so.
Am I wrong about the communist regime in the Soviet Union being an abject disaster for humanity. I certainly don't think so.
Am I wrong about Marxism being a completely failed ideology that is directly responsible for over 100 million deaths in the 20th century. I certainly don't think so.
Am I right about everything. Absolutely not because I find out every day I don't know what companies stock will go up. I'm wrong that I think Putin will post something defensible and logical instead of more indefensible Marxists jibberish. I'm wrong that I think Obama will finally use his great intelligence to end the NRLB's prosecution of Boeing.

I'm wrong all the time, but I'm also right sometimes as well.

So tell me, am I wrong about something being wrong with society in Mecca that doesn't allow a women to walk down the street in a bikini.
Nope, I'm not.

Thucy, I just found your serious question in the thread.

-Do you value Americans over other people?
No, I value people who value individual freedom above all else no matter where they are from. Do you value people who value individual freedom above all else?
-Do you believe someone can be happy without having money or means?
Money doesn't have anything to do with happiness. Money allows you not to be a burden on others and society.
Do you value your responsibility not to be a burden on others and society enough to make enough money to take care of your individual needs and responsibilities?

-What do you believe is the purpose of life?
The purpose of my life is to take care of my family and to provide something for my grandchildren so that they can build a better life for their grandchildren.
I do not believe in an afterlife. I do not believe in a God. I do not mind individuals who believe in an afterlife and a God because I always realize I could be wrong, but uncertainty is part of life.
-To you what defines right from wrong?
An obtuse question. Is it wrong to kill not if it brings freedom from oppression. Is it wrong to steal not if it is the key to unlock the bonds of oppression. It is wrong to be irresponsible, always. Is it wrong to be lazy, always. Is it wrong to envy, always.
-What was the political persuasion of your parents?
I don't really know. My father died when I was young. My mother was not politically oriented at all. I personally wasn't political until I went into business. Then I became obsessed with politics because politicians at the local, state, and national level were obsessed with my business.
-What newspapers do you read regularly?
I get my news off the web almost exclusively.

Now some serious questions for you Thucy.
Did you accept money you did not earn for yourself from anyone or any institution in the last twelve months?
Have you ever legally been responsible for your own child?
Have you ever been married?
Have you ever buried a parent?
Have you ever been in a delivery room and watched a live birth?
Have you ever created a job and hired someone and paid their wages?
Do you know who W. Edwards Deming is?
Have you ever purchased a home?

In my mind talk is cheap. I like to know what concrete things people have done in their lives because I don't have much respect for people who can't answer yes to everyone of the questions above because they are too young and inexperienced to know their ass from a hole in the ground or they are too revolting as adults to have pushed themselves to accomplish what an adult should accomplish in their lives.