Draug, you realize that when you say "Epic. Fucking. Fail" (an expression that you really overuse, by the way), you sound like a twelve year old, right?

Precisely my thoughts, ghug…

@ghug - You realize I don't give a fuck, right?

@Draugnar - You realize your arguments here are all epic fucking fails, right?

"Athiesm has no proof there is no god yet believes there not to be one. Ergo atheism is a religion."

So are you really saying that as well as Christian, you are also an Adragonite? You don't believe dragons exist, do you? Ergo, you must have a religion about the non-existence of dragons.

@ghug - When that disbelief goes so far as to be militant, I can. And to rely on a dictionary definition is to admit defeat. Many things are a religion to people. The term is more than the dictionary definitoion. That is just the denotation, but not the connotation. To some, money is a their god and finance their religion. To militant athiests, logic is their god and science their religion.

"Not believing in something is different that believing something doesn't exist and you know it."

Exactly. Which is why many (or even most) of the "atheists" here should stop calling themselves that and instead describe themselves as they are: anti-theists.

Actually, abge, I do not deny the possible existence of dragons or unicorns or fairies or the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

But you don't actively live your life as if they do...

Going back to the drinking game. That much booze + chocolate would make me at least pretty sick. Maybe trade the chocolate for some potato pancakes. Those can be greasy enough to help with all that alcohol.

"So let me clarify. I only take issue with an athiest who prays. Who is listening if their isn't a god? In so far as Atheism being a religion: I already pointed out that a religion is a set of beliefs without physical proof for those beliefs. Athiesm has no proof there is no god yet believes there not to be one. Ergo atheism is a religion." Again, your post is rife with errors:
1. Obi was saying that the prayer makes good points and is fun to recite, not that he prays himself. Note the difference between saying a prayer and praying.
2. You used "their" instead of "there."
3. A definition isn't valid just because you claim it is.
4. "believes there not to be one" implies that the central belief of atheism is that there won't be a god in the future. I'm pretty sure that wasn't your intent.
5. You continue to ignore the fact that disbelief and belief are not equivalent. It suggest a need for you to validate your religious beliefs, which is not a need you should have. Go practice your beliefs on your own, you have no need to valdate them to us.
6. By your logic, the belief that there aren't ten planets in the solar system is a religion. Are you an undecimaplanitist?

I'm going to go celebrate the holidays with friends and family, I suggest you do the same. Let those who do celebrate Hanukkah or merely wish to have a lighthearted discussion about it do so.

No I don't. But I am not adamant they don't exist. Seriously, not believing in something and being certain it doesn't exist are two different things. Those who don't believe in God but don't attack those who do are fine by me. I have no rpoblem with people not believing as long as they don't attack me for believing. And I would not say they have a religion. But those who feel the need to attack Christianity and Christmas and religion as a whole are fanatics for the religion of atheism, not just simply non-believers.

Good luck with that one, CF. They are rolling and Newton's first law takes affect from there. Takes something much more than a drinking game to stop this avalanche.

Well I had to try. Could we take the atheism debate to another thread? Oh and thank Obi I had totally forgotten today was the first night. Had enough time to text my mom Happy Hanukkah cause of this thread.

@Draug

You are just making up definitions of words to make your point. It's making you look rather silly. You would be pissed if I said something like "Westboro Baptists are Christians so all Christians are bat-shit crazy". Stop making the same generalizations about atheists.

"Note the difference between saying a prayer and praying."

Since you are so fond of dictionary definitions...

Pray - To utter or say a prayer or prayers to; address by prayer

So reciting a prayer is praying using your facorite tool - a dictionary.

Thanks for playing.

Looks like I'm still here for ten minutes.

"Pray - To utter or say a prayer or prayers to; address by prayer"
"say prayers *to*"

Saying a prayer is merely reciting a piece of text that was at one point a prayer unless it is addressed towards someone, whereas praying is the act of addressing a prayer towards someone. Thanks for giving me a definition to prove my point.


"Those who don't believe in God but don't attack those who do are fine by me. I have no rpoblem with people not believing as long as they don't attack me for believing."
A couple things here:
1. Nobody here is being attacked for their beliefs except for those who celebrate Hanukkah, and that is being done by your side.
2. You notice that "anti-theists" as you call us generally only attack Christianity. This is because we have a problem with the apparent need of many Christians to shove their religion in our faces, and the negative impact of that upon the world. I have as little problem with quiet Christians as you do with quit atheists.
3. You do realize the hypocrisy of calling atheism a religion, attacking it, and then saying that you dislike atheists because they attack other religions, right?

Anyway, Draug, if you want to keep having this argument, let's do it over PM or in another thread. (Note that I will be leaving shortly) We don't need to make everyone else suffer.

"Any athiest who paerticipates in prayer is a hypocrite."

Just as such a blanket statement as that is closed-minded...

It's closed-minded to think that an atheist can't see some secularized good in a prayer.

What's so hypocritical about my joining a prayer giving thanks for having been enabled to reach this season--I don't think there's a God listening, but I give thanks on Thanksgiving, too, and no one calls foul then...?

Hell, to leave Hanukkah briefly for Christmas, I actually really like that famous scene in "A Charlie Brown Christmas" where Linus recites Luke and the "For unto you was born this day in The City of David" speech...

I don't think the story's true...but that doesn't mean I can't admire the message Linus stresses in his speech--"Peace on earth and good will towards men"--as well as admire the character's sincerity overall.

"Saying a prayer is merely reciting a piece of text "
"To utter or say a prayer "

Keep digging your hole deeper. Admit that any recitation of a prayer by a non-believer, especially a militant atheist like obi, is hypocrisy.

For Obi, from his hero.

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/fighting_words/2007/12/bah_hanukkah.html

@obi - Prayer, by it's definition, is to a higher power. Like it or not, it is either hypocrisy or ignorance to say a prayer when you don't believe. Hypocrisy if you know better and ignorance if you don't see the difference between a prayer and giving thanks.

Celebrate with family and friends. Honor your heritage. But don't pray.

As far as the Christmas story and enjoying it when Linus recites it. You aren't telling the story, you are listening. Want to listen to the prayer? Fine. But reciting it is hypocrisy.

You are so dumb, dude.

"I only take exception to you saying a prayer. Who the fuck are you praying to?"

No one--I'm saying the prayer because:

1. It makes my mother happy (for Jewish mothers or ANY mother, that's reason enough),
2. It's tradition, and
3. I don't mind for the sake of #1 and #2 saying a prayer about being thankful for reaching this season and still being alive...nothing objectionable there, so I feel no need to shake my fist at it...I don't believe in the Greek gods either, doesn't mean I don't enjoy reading and quoting their exploits in Homer or Sophocles...

The prayer isn't really asking for anything, it doesn't ask God for something, it's one of thanks--

So for me, personally, I just make that "thanks" a rather generalized, universal "thanks" for being alive still, and that's that, no harm done.

@Putin:

Seen that article, and I get--and take--it's point...

But as I don't hold to any of the aspects of it that ARE "tribal" or "backward," and I'm celebrating it in a secular fashion, I doubt Hitch would mind.

He's railing against Jewish orthodoxy and the history behind the conflict...I adhere to neither, ergo, his objections don't stand in the way of my having a good time, nor does my having a good time in a secular fashion break with his anti-theistic stance.

I'm surprised that no one has played this card yet:

I'm sorry you don't understand, but given our past interactions, I suspect you don't actually care and are just looking to waste my time. This conversation is considered resolved.

Is Hanukkah the one with the delicious cookies or is that Purim?

"As far as the Christmas story and enjoying it when Linus recites it. You aren't telling the story, you are listening. Want to listen to the prayer? Fine. But reciting it is hypocrisy."

To make sure I have this straight--

If I am NOT a Christian and I utter "Peace on Earth and good will towards men," or commend a speech in a cartoon that advocates for that, I'm a hypocrite?

...

Did the Grinch come early this year or something, Draug?