...or a systematic problem (short-cutting) by a single individual, perhaps... due to sloth rather than active sabotage. The Jackscrew failure in the Alaska Airlines MD-80 crash in 2000, for example, was due both to inadequate maintenance standards as well as the shortcutting by a single mechanic 4 months before the crash. Link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alaska_Airlines_Flight_261
In that case, once the crash happened, similar problems were found in a number of MD-80s across several airlines. Conspiracy? Hah. No.
I invoke Hanlon's Razor: "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."

Putin - Not everyone who flies is rich and/or spoiled. I just got back from a business trip to Calgary where I had a modest rental car (Jeep Liberty), modest hotel room (Comfort Inn) and a basic per diem for meals. Do you expect me to drive to Canada? I fly economy, not First Class. Your prejudice against people because they happen to fly is a clear sign of social discrimination on your part.

Oh and a 30 year veteran airline pilot makes more than me (note: my career started 30 years ago this past summer so a fair comparison).

At takeoff, we all experience more than 1 G. Considering I am experiencing 1 G sitting on my couch...

hit an air pocket and momentarily that can drop to less than a G. I've felt it many times. ...but yes, mostly more than a G, for sure. When taking off from John Wayne Airport (Orange County, CA) they actually throttle back to no acceleration for a couple of minutes a minute or so after take off (to control noise for the nearby residents) - it's quite disturbing as a passenger... feels like being close to a stall.

@Putin,

"The other important point is nobody cares about spoiled airline passengers."

So you think it's fine to risk the lives of a group of people you don't like. Charming. Needless to say, this kind of thing undermines a lot of your righteous indignation at various causes.

@Draug,

You're right that the main outstanding problem AA has is with the pilot's union. It reached a tentative agreement with the mechanics' union in July. However, a subset of mechanics have been very upset with the deal and attempting to change unions.

http://www.kjrh.com/dpp/news/local_news/American-Airlines-mechanics-look-to-switch-union-representation

Turns out the seat thing has now happened in a third flight, and was found in three more planes besides.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/travel/flights/2012/10/02/american-perception/1608739/

Moreover, the airline claims the planes were service in various facilities. I ask you then, Draug -- are we looking at miraculous incompetence of exactly the same type springing up simultaneously around the country in one airline? Is that the explanation you would prefer? Or does it perhaps make sense to say, hey, unions are doing exactly the same thing they've done to other companies in the past when they weren't happy with their contracts.

Those who would say there is not an iron-class case yet are _obviously_ correct, and the post was somewhat deliberately provocative. That said, I would invite alternative explanations for how six planes would somehow develop exactly the same issue involving negligently installed hardware.

@jamiet,

"unsupported by evidence" is not true. It's not sufficient evidence to convict anybody right now, that is true. But circumstantial statistical evidence is CERTAINLY evidence, and people HAVE been convicted on it before if it gets strong enough.

By the way, it takes less than a minute to accelerate from 200 mph (approximate takeoff speed) to 500 mph at 0.25 G acceleration. Simply no need to do it faster (and it would put unnecessary strain on the airframe).

So Semck admits he was blaming unions without a shred of evidence for trolling purposes. I guess he gets his jollies from hating people who work for a living.

"So you think it's fine to risk the lives of a group of people you don't like."

Says the guy who defends police brutality while whining about some snobs who had to move to some other seats. "Risk lives", my foot.

And to your point, no, I don't care about the enemy in the class war. Nor do you care about the working class. Why do we have to pretend otherwise?

semck said: "I would invite alternative explanations for how six planes would somehow develop exactly the same issue involving negligently installed hardware."
I provided several. See above.

So Semck, please explain why the company who is in this contract battle with the union is going out of its way to defend the union and their workers reputations? You want to talk about miracles? You haven't bothered to address any of Dexter Morgan's alternatives to your crackpot union hate scenario.

+1 semck.

Certainly wouldn't be the first time union thugs scared the customers away to 'make a point' during a contract dispute and wondered why they faced huge layoffs when they go back to work because the business dried up.

As for Made in China parts theory, IIRC aerospace is one of the few industries that makes sure their parts suppliers are all American companies because of just those kinds of Q/A concerns.

"And to your point, no, I don't care about the enemy in the class war."

You must have been cheering on 9/11 then. I'm sure the median net worth of 9/11 victims was a heckuva lot higher than the average.

@Putin,

Man, and you think obi can't read?

"So Semck admits he was blaming unions without a shred of evidence for trolling purposes. "

No, actually, I explicitly said there WAS evidence. I said it was not enough to convict or to be certain. You're familiar with the distinction perhaps?

"Says the guy who defends police brutality"

Where did I defend police brutality, pray tell?

""Risk lives", my foot. "

I see. So would you say that the FAA taking an interest in this is an example of government overreach, since the issue doesn't really matter at all?

"And to your point, no, I don't care about the enemy in the class war."

Wow, good to know. I'll come back to this point time and again in future discussions, I have no doubt -- putin doesn't care if the middle class's lives are put at risk.

"Nor do you care about the working class."

Actually I do, very much.

"So Semck, please explain why the company who is in this contract battle with the union is going out of its way to defend the union and their workers reputations?"

They're not exactly "going out of their way" -- they contradicted the union claim that the seats were mostly installed by third parties, for example.

But as for why they're not crying foul, probably because they want to minimize the fear that there is sabotage, because people wouldn't buy tickets on their flights. Did you really need me to spell out something so basic for you?

"@dexter,

"I provided several. See above. "

Hadn't noticed them, thanks for pointing them out. Possibilities all, but I wouldn't say likely. Since the planes were serviced at different locations, it's probably not an indolent worker. Since there's never been a failure before and then there were six in extremely short order, but all with one airline, well, that's pretty odd. You'd think some other airlines would have the problem. It's not like the Alaska Air case where the first one was so bad that all the other airlines went and quickly checked. Besides which, we know from public information now that the clamp was actually improperly installed, not failing:

http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-american-airlines-20121003,0,5273989.story

@Dexter - But during take off, it isn't just horizontal acceleration but vertical as well and we always experience 1 G vertically unless we are in a descent, temporary as in an airpocket or long term as in an approach. And I was principally talking about take off.

@Semck - Baring evidence of actual sabotage, my explanation would be inadequate procedures on the 757 maintenance. Notice that all 6 aircraft with the issue array 757s.

Putin - So the poor working class guu who saved up all year to take his wife on a special anniversary trip doesn't matter either? Ait travel is not the exclusive province of the rich.

Draug, I think Putin is concerned about the poor guy who can't trade food stamps for a plane ticket.

Working class isn't food stamp class and he said working class.

The real irony is I bet Putin took plenty of plane flights when mommy and daddy were paying his way through college.

Oh I didn't actually read the thread beyond the first few posts. Too many "you can't read" insults to take the discussion seriously (and too few people reading what others wrote. Case in point, me :)

"You must have been cheering on 9/11 then. I'm sure the median net worth of 9/11 victims was a heckuva lot higher than the average."

There were plenty of 'union thug' firefighters who were killed heroically trying to save people, and unlike you I have no love for jihadists.

"No, actually, I explicitly said there WAS evidence. "

You saying there was evidence and there actually *being* evidence are two different things. Maybe you're familiar with the distinction?

"Wow, good to know. I'll come back to this point time and again in future discussions, I have no doubt -- putin doesn't care if the middle class's lives are put at risk."

Go for it. I'm not surprised you think frequent airline passengers are "middle class". This accounts for your distorted view of reality. You don't care if workers lives are put at risk which is you why you want to crush the only organizations who advocate for occupational safety.

"Actually I do, very much."

So long as they behave like doormats for surplus expropriators...oh sorry, "job creators". Right. You care "very much".

"Where did I defend police brutality, pray tell?"

I think the forum needs a prescription for memory enhancers. How about the long "discussion" we had about your defense of police brutality against Occupy Wall Street protesters. You know, those same people who just won a settlement for getting pepper sprayed at point blank range - the very conduct *you defended*.

"probably because they want to minimize the fear that there is sabotage, because people wouldn't buy tickets on their flights. Did you really need me to spell out something so basic for you?"

As opposed to people thinking the airline is replete with maintenance failures? In terms of contract negotiations, wouldn't you think your beloved bosses would want to thoroughly discredit the workers in the eyes of the public? Hard to win a contract dispute if you don't have public support.

"they contradicted the union claim that the seats were mostly installed by third parties, for example."

But they did say that they were installed by a bunch of different parties, not much of a contradiction. Whereas your whole theory rests on the word of a "retired pilot", and the idea that maintenance procedures could have been faulty is "incredulous". Fantastic.

"Putin - So the poor working class guu who saved up all year to take his wife on a special anniversary trip doesn't matter either? Ait travel is not the exclusive province of the rich."

I said 95% of airline passengers. Yes, yes, obligatory outrage about making generalized statements, blah blah blah.

"The real irony is I bet Putin took plenty of plane flights when mommy and daddy were paying his way through college."

This line again? How many times have you been embarrassed using this line of attack? I lived 2 hours from where I went to college and I'm unhappily in a pile of debt because mommy & daddy didn't pay my way. GFY.

" I just got back from a business trip to Calgary where I had a modest rental car (Jeep Liberty), modest hotel room (Comfort Inn) and a basic per diem for meals. Do you expect me to drive to Canada? I fly economy, not First Class. Your prejudice against people because they happen to fly is a clear sign of social discrimination on your part."

You constantly brag about how much money you make here, being over six figures. You want us to believe you were born in a log cabin now? You're right, I socially discriminate against the rich, the posh, and the bourgeois. That's because they are making bazillions while the working class gets destroyed. I frankly despise the wannabe rich more than the rich, because they tend to have more reactionary politics, thinking the government & minorities are precluding them from their God ordained "success".

I fail to see why I should treat people with respect who routinely call the working class "thugs", lazy, dependent, mediocre, etc. Who make fun of the people who were foreclosed upon. Who blame the poor for the financial crisis the banks caused. Who cheer when anti-war & anti-capitalist protesters get their heads kicked in by the police. I don't take a plastic spoon to a knife fight.

@putin,

You: "So Semck admits he was blaming unions without a shred of evidence for trolling purposes."

Me: "No, actually, I explicitly said there WAS evidence. I said it was not enough to convict or to be certain. You're familiar with the distinction perhaps?"

You: "You saying there was evidence and there actually *being* evidence are two different things. Maybe you're familiar with the distinction? "

In context, you can see what a stupid point this is. Your initial claim wasn't that there was no evidence -- it was that I HAD ADMITTED there was no evidence. Which is false.

As usual, you fail to keep your eye on the ball.

"You don't care if workers lives are put at risk"

Not even the first clue what you're talking about.

"I'm not surprised you think frequent airline passengers are "middle class". "

Me neither, because I know lots of other middle and lower class people who fly, and have sat beside plenty of them on airplanes. Nurses, baristas, security guards, etc. Sure, there are also businessmen. But then, it shouldn't matter in the first place. Some of us care about the welfare of all Americans.

"Some of us care about the welfare of all Americans."

You're full of it.

"Your initial claim wasn't that there was no evidence -- it was that I HAD ADMITTED there was no evidence. "

You admitted it was a bunch of "circumstantial" conspiracy mongering, purposely posted to inflame. Your tactic was to blame the unions first without waiting for any investigation, accuse them of all sorts of criminal behavior and industrial sabotage, and produce nothing but the word of a single retired pilot and a hunch to back it up.

Now you're going to play your usual word games because when backed into a corner on your bs, you resort to semantic warfare and argumentum ad tedium.

"You're full of it."

Love for my fellow Americans, you mean? Yes, yes I am.

Yeah you know plenty of "lower class" people who fly. I wonder what your definition of 'lower class' is. 150,000 a year?

http://www.altitude-media.com/demographics/continental-airlines/

"I wonder what your definition of 'lower class' is. 150,000 a year?"

About $20k-$30k, in this case.

"Love for my fellow Americans, you mean? Yes, yes I am."

About as much as Monsanto loves organic farming.