11 planes 10 helecopters

"And there's a difference in that the protestors in Kiev were just that - protestors. "

That's a crock. The "protesters" were sniping at police officers and killed and/or wounded dozens. Before that they had brought bulldozers in and were smashing police vehicles and barricades. That violence preceded any reciprocal action from the police. But as usual fascists are called 'peaceful protesters' while the people who protest the Stepan Bandera fans, and the people firebombing synagogues are called "armed gunmen".

"Do you think the Russian Black Sea fleet needs protecting?"

From the fascist goons who are running the Rada and making shit up as they go along. The same people who are knocking down WWII memorials and firebombing synagogues, and who are willing to be vassals of the IMF, the EU and NATO. What happens to the Black Sea fleet when the rightwing reactionaries let NATO in?

No, I'd be thrilled if Russia gave these Nazis a well deserved ass kicking. I don't see why anybody would protest.

Oh and for all of you people bitching about Russia's gay law, check out your new heroes from the Fatherland party and what they've said about gay rights.

You are such a hypocrite

Hypocrite about what? This was western instigated fascist coup that seeks to destroy ethnic Russians in Ukraine. Russia has every right to defend them and mow down your Nazi friends.

I heard Nazis. Are we re-enacting World War II?

Putin33 is being an idiot

he can't help it

Putin, do you want me to show you videos of three-man police sniper units shooting protestors? I have that I can show you too. And again I remind you that the protests were civil until the police started engaging the protestors and killed a few of them. Protestors were the first to die - and that's a fact. Everything else from then was just spiraling out of control from there, and that would've happened regardless if the protestors were pro-Russian or pro-Ukrainian.

And by WW2 memorials, do you mean the Lenin statues and other references to Soviet greatness that they tore down? How is that different than tearing down statues of Saddam Hussein?

And securing a place for your fleet isn't a reason for invading a nation, Putin. If Japan were to kick us from Okinawa, or Germany from Ramstein, we would do exactly what we did when the Philippines kicked us from Manila...which is nothing.

I have to admit no little concern over the Ukrainian situation. Quite why we're expected to be fully behind a bunch of glorified thugs that just overthrew a legitimate government I have no idea. Considering that until a few weeks ago even the most politically minded Brits knew no more than a couple of Ukraine politicians, the idea that we are now all know enough to take sides in a highly complex issue is ludicrous.

NATO: Nazi Atlantic Treaty Organization. I'm new here, but shouldn't there be some kind of automatic argument loss when invoking Nazis or Hitler out of context?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/ukraine-protest-stoked-by-harsh-new-laws-gives-voice-to-frustration-with-their-leaders/2014/01/19/e850c2b4-812a-11e3-8099-9181471f7aaf_story.html


This preceded any violent action by police, so you're full of shit. Ukraine police exercised maximum restraint in response to months of violent riotous activity in Kiev.

"And by WW2 memorials, do you mean the Lenin statues and other references to Soviet greatness that they tore down? How is that different than tearing down statues of Saddam Hussein?"

No I mean memorials to Red Army soldiers who *died* liberating Ukraine from Nazis.
Meanwhile posters of Nazi collaborators are everywhere, the three finger Ukrainian Nazi salute is everywhere, the wolfsangel symbol is everywhere.

http://rt.com/news/war-monument-toppled-ukraine-351/
http://rt.com/news/ukraine-monuments-nazi-symbols-645/

"And securing a place for your fleet isn't a reason for invading a nation, Putin. If Japan were to kick us from Okinawa, or Germany from Ramstein, we would do exactly what we did when the Philippines kicked us from Manila...which is nothing."

Because the US border is in central Europe or SE Asia, right? And we'd have reason to fear that the Germans would let a hostile army take over Rammstein or the Philippines, right?

"And securing a place for your fleet isn't a reason for invading a nation, Putin. If Japan were to kick us from Okinawa, or Germany from Ramstein, we would do exactly what we did when the Philippines kicked us from Manila...which is nothing. "

so Is it "invading a nation" when the US secures its embassies with military forces?

I wish it was out of context. But the images speak for themselves. The Svoboda Party used to be called the National Socialist Party, and their hero is a Nazi collaborator - Stepan Bandera.

Octavious - the group that was in power before was full of corrupt oligarchs. The fact that few - from either side - are in positions of power for the transition government is a welcome sign. New elections are scheduled to happen soon (I have to check when) so, barring massive corruption, there should be a legitimate government soon.

But you should take note, since the UK and the US (and Russia too) are treaty-bound to protect the territorial sovereignty of Ukraine.

Corrupt oligarchs? The hero of the opposition, Timoshenko, the gas princess, misued a quarter billion dollars in state funds, for which she was convicted and sent to prison.

Yanukovich is the legitimately elected president. Goldfinger is supporting a violent coup led by the far-right Fatherland and Svoboda Parties and pretending it has any legitimacy.

@goldfinger

What makes you imagine that a new set of elections held in far from ideal conditions will produce better leaders than the last lot?

Putin - I'm sure that some of the protestors were right wing and possibly the new interim govt is right leaning or even far right. The Ukrainians should choose their own leaders in the fullness of time and it could be that some of them particularly in Crimea would want to become part of Russia or to be independent. I'm not even saying Russia is wrong to post troops outside of the Black Sea port, but I think it is happening. To maintain that they are defensive forces is reminiscent of comical Ali. It would be crazy for fascist, NATO the EU or anyone else to try and attack the Russian Black Sea fleet.

The gangsters in the Rada aren't a government at all. It's not interim anything. The Russian action was fully in line with the treaty Russia signed with Ukraine.

"What makes you imagine that a new set of elections held in far from ideal conditions will produce better leaders than the last lot?"

Octavious, don't you get it? If you don't follow the diktats of the IMF and Washington you're automatically branded "corrupt". If you misuse hundreds of millions in state money you're a freedom fighting corruption free hero.

"so Is it "invading a nation" when the US secures its embassies with military forces?"

I'm not saying Russia has invaded Ukraine, Santa. That was more in response to Putin's wish that Russia would invade Ukraine.

"This preceded any violent action by police, so you're full of shit. Ukraine police exercised maximum restraint in response to months of violent riotous activity in Kiev. "

I'm not saying the protestors were angels, Putin. You were insinuating though that they were sniping at police officers from day one and I was countering it. They did what all protestors do - regardless of their motivation. They egged on riot police, threw stones and such at them. Violent actions, yes, but not deadly ones. Not until the police began the killing. What I have been trying to do all along is distinguish Maidan from what is going on in Simferopol. At Maidan they did not storm Parliament and host the flag of the EU up in place of Ukraine's flag.

And war monuments of Soviet success were torn down. Those weren't Ukrainian victories, they were Red Army victories. So why should they be celebrated there? You don't see statues of the Allied soldier in Tunisia or Libya, even though we liberated them from Nazi power.

The Nazi symbolism though, is disturbing. I will grant you that. There is a far right radical element to the protests, as far right elements have been gaining popularity in many European countries lately - Italy, Greece, etc. But are those people in positions of power in the transition government? Not that I'm aware of. The legislature is still the same as far as I know.

I thought the Black Sea agreement included clauses which meant Russian troops didn't venture beyond the base. If you could provide a link saying they are allowed to organise outside the base I'd be interested to see it.

Putin - in all likelihood, Tymoshenko was corrupt. I don't like her. I don't like how she did a complete 180 in terms of political alignment from the 1990s to 2000s. I hope she doesn't win the election. But just because she was corrupt does not sanction Yanukovich's corruption. And if the coup was led by the Fatherland and Svoboda parties, how come the crowd at Maidan booed them when they announced the deal last Friday (that I personally found quite agreeable). How come they couldn't control their constituencies?

Octavious - I don't know. That's the beauty of fair and free elections in that you don't know who is going to win and how good they are going to be. But the reforms that IMF will impose upon the government will work wonders in the long term on the economy. Look at all the Asian countries that borrowed from the IMF in the 1990s. It hurt...hell, it hurt the a lot in the short term. But they're doing great now and have stronger institutions as a result.

Putin,

"New elections are scheduled to happen soon (I have to check when) so, barring massive corruption, there should be a legitimate government soon."

That was me agreeing that this government isn't legitimate, so please don't attack me on that.

"Those weren't Ukrainian victories, "

Ukrainians were in the Red Army, goldfinger. What the hell are you talking about? WHy shouldn't they celebrate their liberation from Nazi rule? Gee I don't know, why don't you ask the population of Kharkhiv that was annihilated. The fact is the protesters seized a number of ammunition depots prior to the escalation of the violence. The police began when the rioters tried to storm the parliament building - and they were armed. At the same time these supposedly 'non-violent' protesters were sacking the Party of Regions HQ and other governmental buildings, setting them on fire. This is not what all protesters do. The attempt to portray these people as victims of repression is just garbage. They tried to violently take over the government.

"distinguish Maidan from what is going on in Simferopol. "

Only because they failed.

"But are those people in positions of power in the transition government?"

Are you kidding?

Yatsenyk has been nominated for Prime Minister (Fatherland Party). The Neo-Nazi leader Dmitry Yarosh has been named Deputy Leader of the Security Council, with Fatherland Party member Boris Tarasyuk as Leader of the Security Council.

So the very people bombing synagogues and attacking party offices are running security. Brilliant.

If you can believe the far-right are on the sidelines with this new government, you can believe anything.

See, here I was under the impression that at the onset the Ukrainians cooperated with the Nazis because they hated the Soviets so much....I believe you gave me that impression from one of the talks we had over the years on Russia's role in WW2. And then when the Nazis turned out to be worse than the Soviets they changed sides.

And you're saying entire political parties are Nazis lovers. That's like saying every Democrat wants to turn the US into a socialist nation.

"That's like saying every Democrat wants to turn the US into a socialist nation."

Yeah. That would be crazy. Socialism is so 1980's. Obviously nowadays they want to turn it into a Muslim nation under sharia law.

" thought the Black Sea agreement included clauses which meant Russian troops didn't venture beyond the base."

Russia is supposed to notify the Rada about any such movements, but not in emergencies which naturally this qualifies.