What makes you think the rest of Europe is going to go along with you, Redhouse? Netherlands doesn't exactly have a lot of credibility on the issue European unity, yourself especially, and some countries (Hungary) are slowly starting to realize that life in the EU has been full of preconditions and empty promises and have begun to look east.

/\ I think Putin33 is right...

And I'm not sure what sort of ridiculous ass clown first seems to deride the concept of states rights, while simultaneously suggesting that small countries should have the right to self-direction.

Moron.

The opposite sort of ridiculous ass clown that first seems to support the concept of states rights, only to insist on the right to intervene in the affairs of other countries.

"What makes you think the rest of Europe is going to go along with you, Redhouse?"

Nothing. Europe's not going to take Putin's offer, but I'm just saying I find it tempting personally.

@Putin:

"ridiculous ass clown that first seems to support the concept of states rights, only to insist on the right to intervene in the affairs of other countries."

Isn't that exactly what you are? Or was that your point?

No. Try to pay attention.

Also the whole point of my objection to federalism is that it creates overlapping sovereignties and undermines central authority, which is also my problem with a global power that intervenes in the affairs of states.

Attempts at federalism and decentralization have simply been a trojan horse for separatism whereever they have been tried.

no putin was insulting krellin who had it coming for him

Putin - you may owe me that bet that we made on annexation. March 16th we shall see if Crimea is absorbed into Russia.

Can anyone help me understand David Cameron's statement yesterday. He said clearly that the UK stands up for the rights of people to choose how they are governed. The people of Scotland get to choose if they want to stay in the UK, but he is defending the unelected Ukrainian Govt position that only a referendum held across of whole of the Ukraine can determine if Crimea should be independent or Annexed by Russia. I honestly don't get it - please explain.

It's very consistent. Cameron is organizing / allowing this referendum in his function of Prime Minister of the UK. The referendum result in Scotland has the consent of the body from which it separates. In Crimea, no referendum should be held unless the Ukrainian government / parliament (the body from which the separation takes place) also allows these actions.

Basically he is saying self-determination isn't a right unless your oppressors allow it - india had no right to be free of the english unless the english decided they could be, same with algeria and france, and all other remnants of the empire. Typical disgusting comments from a man whose party was famed for its love of empire.

"In Crimea, no referendum should be held unless the Ukrainian government / parliament (the body from which the separation takes place) also allows these actions."

Of course, neither the UK nor any of the rest of the western powers had any problem forcibly separating Kosovo from Serbia against the latter's will, or dismantling Yugoslavia in general. Color me unimpressed by these 'statements of principle' by Mr. Cameron. In that case, the supposed oppression of a minority was a perfectly acceptable justification for intervention and imposed territorial change. Now, it's "aggression".

"Basically he is saying self-determination isn't a right unless your oppressors allow it - i"

Self-determination with the consent of the parent state has been a bedrock principle of the post-colonial international order. It's why we've had zero successful separatist movements in Africa except for the recent case of South Sudan, which was predicated on the consent of Khartoum.

Eritrea I do not count because it is widely viewed as an extension of the decolonization process, long delayed.

Also, shouldn't the Irish be rather perplexed at the UK position? If consent of an entire territory is the only acceptable method of extracting self-determination, doesn't that render the whole sordid mess with Northern Ireland a big head scratcher?

@Putin
Never, ever, ever, have you heard me make an argument about Kosovo and Serbia and you keep battering me on the head about it!
Honestly, I have very little clue to what happened in Kosovo. I should read up, but I just don't know.

Let's take the gas-rich Dutch province of Groningen, for example. Should it have the right to self-determination? The Dutch constitution was clear on the topic long before gas was found in Groningen: the Dutch state is the owner of all mineral wealth underneath its soil...

That was something the Groningers agreed with. Then they found gas. Now, should they have the right to separate them from the Netherlands? What if I find oil under my home tomorrow, do I have a right to proclaim the Republic of Redhouse? Basically that would be like saying the constitution is void.

@Redhouse - I still don't see that Cameron is being consistant, but let me put it another way. I think that granting the Scots a referendum is fine. I could live with the Crimean's NOT being granted a referendum IF it didn't have such hugh implications. But lets take this to the extreme to so how silly this is. It could end up with UK/NATO troops on the ground trying to force a region to belong to a country it doesn't want to belong to. That country's leaders weren't even elected by a free and fair vote. Would you want your family and friends taking up arms over such a non-sensical cause?

Also Cameron, quite rightly, defends the rights of the people of Gibralta and the Falklands to decide their own governments. Should a referendum be held by the Whole of Spain and UK to decide where Gibralta should lie? Perhaps Argentina should have more of a say in any Falklands referendum.

If we start to impose sanctions and tough talkking about this being the biggest crisis of this century, we should look very closely at what the people of crimea want. If that means we have to put some pressure on Ukraine to accept the will of the people, then so be it.

I think it is a fait-a compli that Crimea will be Russian. Accept this inevitability and get on with making best of it and resolving other problems within ukraine.

The Kiev putschists have apparently abducted the governor of Donetsk. I fear for his safety.

Redhouse you make everything personal, I was simply pointing out that the UK's position is completely ad hoc and unprincipled.

Wasnt the governor of donestk a billionaire that the new government put into position? Why would they abduct their own man?

Gubarev is most certainly not an ally of the Kiev authorities and was recently elected to the position of governor. He was part of the movement that took over the administration of the city and declared Donetsk autonomous from Kiev.

@Maniac,
Well, I'm principally against all referenda, including on such matters as separation, but the principle, that when a new nation separates itself from a parent nation to determine its own fate both parent and offspring nation should agree (whether agreement is reached by referendum or other democratic/legal process), seems to be what Cameron is pushing for both in the Ukraine/Crimea as well as the UK/Scotland case.
Putin is confusing this discussion with Kosovo and what not and I'm not getting into that :-)
I don't feel the analogy with Gibraltar: Gibraltar has been a part of the UK since 1713 and during the last Gibraltar referendum 99% of the valid votes casts rejected Spanish influence in its governing. The Treaty of Utrecht establishing British control over Gibraltar was co-signed by Spain, several other countries and, most importantly, the Netherlands, whose wise and magnanimous judgment should be taken as the guiding principle in any international affair.
As for the Falklands: again, the condition that the locals should agree with its integration into Argentina is not fulfilled, so I don't see why you mention them either...

Why is it confusing? Either it's a requirement that the separatist entity gain permission from the parent state or it isn't.

Redhouse - the point I'm making is one of consistency.
It makes sense to me that only the residents of Scotland should vote on their independents, likewise the gibraltans, likewise the falkland islanders, likewise the UK on whether they stay in the EU. It makes no sense for the whole of Ukraine to vote on a Crimea independence referendum. It makes even less sense that this is causing the biggest international crisis this century.

Let the crimean's vote, and make the best of the outcome.

Will not bite the Gibraltar and Falklands/Malvinas comments. Must not bite . . .

Lets stop this farce right now. This referendum should not be allowed, as it is backed and being escalated by Moscow. Does nobody find the situation at all suspicious?

First, Russia blocks Ukraine's ships in their port (not Russia's port, Ukraine's port) by sinking one of their ships in the entrance. They're encouraging the commander of the base to defect with his men.

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2014/03/06/russia-sinks-own-ship-to-block-ukrainian-vessels-official-says/

Freedom of the press is not being allowed in Crimea at this point in time.

http://www.politico.com/blogs/media/2014/03/cnn-team-told-to-stop-broadcasting-from-crimea-184690.html
http://www.channel4.com/news/russia-cctv-crimea-journalists-attacked-paramilitaries

The soldiers in Crimea are Russia soldiers. Investigative journalists have gone onto the social media profiles of Russian soldiers based in southern units, and many of their latest posts are coming from Crimea, and are pictures of Crimea. This, among many, many other confirmations of their identity.

http://mashable.com/2014/03/07/crimea-troops-russian/

There is evidence of protestors being bused in from Russia to the eastern cities of Ukraine.

There have been attempts to storm the Ukrainian military facilities in Crimea.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26492053#TWEET1065567

Russia is proposing expanding its citizenship to all Russians who lived in the former Soviet Union, giving them a causus belli to invade any one of their neighbors

http://www.eurasianet.org/node/68112

And finally, pressures against the Tatars is mounting. In several towns people have gone door to door and carved X's into the houses of Crimean Tatars.

www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/newsdesk/2014/03/who-will-protect-the-crimean-tatars.html

What is a farce is your outrage about Crimean self-determination.