By the way....it's a Pen Name....so no point in looking up the author and sending letter-bombs to krellin! lol

You've got balls Krellin! I like that.
You and I may not agree on many things, and I may even dislike your approach to some discussions here, but I think it takes guts to let people who've explicitly insulted you look at your writing. And for that, I salute you!

That being said, I would love to give you my input but as I have my own writing to get done (thesis work!), I feel like I need to focus on my shit first. Hope I get the chance to come around to it though.
Best of luck.

It's a short story....if you need a break, take a look.

But, as I've said, this is anonymous, and frankly most of the shit said on these forums in the extremism of anonymous posting. Most of us are probably delightfully moderate in real life, despite our utopian ideologies. I guarantee that I could enjoy a night of fine conversation over a few good beers with *anyone* on this site. I truly hold no ill will towards any of you, even if I *do* think you are all assholes. lol

And by hating me....you may give me my best critical feedback...or my highest praise.

I'm going to read the full of it later, but just based on the first two pages, you do a great job bringing us into the setting. Moving into it slowly as background detail is a great way to go about it, I kind of hate the style some people use where it opens as a wall of text about where we are.

I don't like the way this sentence reads:

"Peter knew all must suffer for their sins, for God, but still he worried, and so he prayed."

I'm not sure how to fix it, it just wasn't smooth for me. I'll reflect on it later. All in all, I enjoy it so far and will read it all, let you know.

Cachimbo +1

I don't have the time to read right now, but you've made one of the biggest turn arounds in terms of respectability I've ever seen krellin. You used to be little more than a troll to this site, and now most of your contributions are intelligent, thought out and helpful. So well done.

thanks.

<selfish bump>

Krellin, I read the entire story. I've been reading science fiction since I was ..what...8? (Zip Zip goes to Mars). This is an excellent story, wish I could write like this.
I notated a few minor grammer corrections - if you give me an email address, I'll send you a word doc. My one constructive criticism would be that it felt unfinished. That it need a conclusion, perhaps a twist. Felt 90% complete. Please bear in mind that I consider myself a good writer but a terribly unperceptive literary critic, but after a lot of Sci Fi, I think a great ending is critical. Anyhow.... congratulations. If I saw that in Asimov's or where ever short stories are published these days, I would have thought it right at home.

(you can send your email address to [email protected])

Well, Hemingway "I hate it, because even if I like it i'll hate it and you all the more" (paraphrasing) I can't really be objective about this because I'm partial to writing too. It's a bit to preachy for me, the message is predictable. Freedom of religion. the very beginning about praying to god alienated me and I feel it would alienate pretty much everyone who isn't devout religious. And the you snuck in a middle finger to atheism ( I'm guessing that's aimed at Dawkins, Hitchens, Harris etc.), who I'm assuming you oppose and see as disrespectful to religion and so on, and as an atheist myself it wasn't very nice. It's would be much better if you could leave out the devout prayer and the bit about atheism being offensive, and if you could convey the religious sentiment of the main character in a bit more nuanced way. this really has potential to be a great story just about how fascistic government control and the blending of church and state (as in fascism) is bad and how technology van be perverted, almost Huxley-esque, but i felt from the opening passage as if I was being hit with "God Exists!" and then later on screw atheism which alienates many humanists out there who would otherwise agree with the message.

Interesting, denis, because I think the whole idea is that God doesn't *have* to exist....but is an idea, a tool, a hammer, that can be used against those who profess to believe.

That people believe in God is a truth...and Peter believes truly, and this is reflected. Clearly you felt his belief, and it offended you...so it hit home.

It was by no means intended as a slight against atheists, I assure you, or Dawkins, Hitchens, etc. If anything, it is my middle-finger to my own religious past, to my hypocrite Pastors and Sunday-best, pew-sitting "worshipers" of God.

Thanks for you alternate perspective. It is greatly appreciated.

I'm going to guess that Denis isn't a Sci Fi fan? I wasn't looking for a pro vs con stance on religion. Sci Fi can come from any direction - it's not about worrying about who would be alienated, it's more about presenting a (typically future) situation, extrapolated from current technology or trends, and then getting hit with something unexpected in that new environment. The new environment could be atheist...or highly religious.. If one starts a story and reads about the character praying and is alienated.... one takes fiction too seriously :)

Alright, give me a bit to read it...

Again, I haven't read it, but I'd imagine I'd agree with denis. Pretty much any mention of religion turns me off.

It's an interesting idea, for sure. I agree that the ending didn't seem to mesh with the rest of the story. You could feel the buildup of tension leading up to when he went into Jonah's room, so maybe the climax should be placed there.

I dunno, I'm a non-Christian, and I didn't feel the same preachiness...if anything, I felt the paranoia and suspicion of religion up there in the beginning, with examples of indoctrination...it felt like it was against organized religion more than anything else to me.

Well krellin I understand that the just of the story was against the controlling features of organized religion, but when he goes online and finds the " the atheists rant against god offensive" it just seems unessecary to include that. And if the belief that Peter holds could be communicated in a more nuanced way rather than it being the first thing mentioned in the story I feel it would be more enticing, also if the message of freedom of religion could be communicated in a way that makes a reader think about the meaning rather than how you just bluntly mentioned that Peter thinks he should be able to chose his own religion. Sorry if it's a bit harsh but I truly think it has potential.

@smiley -- I assure you, it is *not* a flattering view of religion.
@TBroad....or perhaps the entire ending should be changed...a conflict with the Chruch, the elder's coming after him...? At the behest of his father...forced into further compliance? An "exorcism" of his free will?

@krellin: mhm. Those are all great ideas. I think it should involve Peter being forced back into compliance by the religion, just to emphasize the oppression that goes along with it.

Krellin have you read Brave New World?

Agreed....I think that would wrap it up a little better...and certainly leave a sour, thoughtful taste in the reader's mouth, no matter where they stand on religion.

@denis....Brave New World is one of my favorite books. As is 1984, Animal Farm...I trust you sense a trend.

Good books always end in a depressing way... Like 1984... Brave New World... Farenhiet 451... The Stranger... Player Piano... Sirens of Titan...

Farenhiet 451....another great one! I started to teach that to my 10th Grade English class i taught one year...but it was a Christian school I was volunteer teaching at, and one of my more prudish students objected to the content....

I'm sure she is barefoot and pregnant today, per her required belief system....

Well krellin that's the thing... This is just an original take on the same general idea... If you notice how Huxley wrote Brave New World, a religious person walks away thinking it was theistic... But an atheist can walk away thinking it's atheistic... Because even though God is discussed and organized religion is openly criticized in the end their is still an ambiguity over whether or not the author intended it to be theistic or atheistic.

I understand. I also -- and this would be completely my fault -- believe you read too much into this story. Peter believes in religion....but there is no suggestion, no proof *at all* that God exists in the story. there is only a suggestion that a Church exists....and said Church seeks to control it's members. I don't think any atheist would disagree that 1. Churches exist and 2. They want to control their members. The twist is what happens when technology allows the Church to "make God real" in the mind of the believer, with the state's consent...But it neither advocates God nor denies God. As for your previous comments about him looking up info on the net and some negative atheist comments....I will certainly look into that when I rewrite. I thank you sincerely for your comments, denis.

The unity of church and state could be an interesting dynamic to explore. Maybe the police become involved?