I don't think anyone at all supports the NSA.

Seriously though, have you ever heard of a protest in the United States? We all sit on our asses and say we should fix all these things and then elect the same bastards into Congress and the same jackwad into the White House over and over again. We have what was when we first started a relatively unique form of protest in the ability to remove someone from power without a bloody uprising yet now that most everyone has it it's no longer used effectively.

Are you too young to even remember 2011? There are loads of protests here.

This is the ugly side of diplomacy. It's true, everyone spies on everyone. Even allies. States are not moral agents, and we need to stop thinking they are.

Yes, there are "protests." There aren't protests like you'd see in other places though. Too many of us are silent moderates. In reality, it's amazing when a protest does gain steam.

There aren't protests like that because things aren't bad enough. Obama is no Assad or Mubarak or even Erdogan. Our government, for all its serious flaws, is still a democracy where we elect our representatives in fair elections. That government still recognizes and protects freedom of speech and assembly. The economy is far from robust, but it's not like we're dealing with 66% youth unemployment like they have in Spain.

Basically, we don't have protests like other places because things still clunk along pretty well here, especially relative to a host of other places in the world. When krellin's in a FEMA camp for criticizing the regime I'll get out on the barricades with you, but that's not terribly likely anytime soon.

@Invictus

There appear, to me at least, to be two particular problems with what the NSA is doing:

1) It is bad for business. The US has gained innumerable privileges by being the de facto country of the free internet. As companies and countries start to second-guess the integrity of the US's ability to run the Internet, those perks are jeopardized.

2) The NSA has actively harmed the integrity of academic cryptography, which puts absolutely everyone at risk in a way the NSA can't possibly control or predict.

To be clear, EXPOSING what the NSA is doing is what caused those problems.

Hey, I'm no fan of what's going on. I just don't think we should be surprised.

To an American, the NSA's actions should be perceived as an egregious violation of our rights, Invictus. There ought to be real protests and real legal action. Thankfully you're right in that we don't have the problems those countries do, but look at a place like Brazil, where corruption runs rampant and a large majority of the poor classes are held down by an overwhelming amount of wealth among the rich (sound familiar?).

Even if you don't agree with a protest, the idea that Americans find everything to complain about but nothing to get off the couch for is a suggestion of what the American idea of protest actually is.

@Invictus

Perhaps for point 1, but not for point 2.

Purposefully weakening cryptography standards would still have been extremely dangerous even without the leaks.

It is a violation of OUR rights, yes. I think we're well past due for laws that protect our rights when it comes to electronic information. Even a few more constitutional amendments may be in order. That's a wholly separate issue from the spying on the French.

As for protest, maybe.

The thought of few amendments or even extensive regulations should be warmly received. Hopefully they get around to it when they take a hiatus from the ACA.

Oh yes, warmly received constitutional amendments. That's the next step.

"Hopefully they get around to it when they take a hiatus from the ACA."

Nothing will get done in this country till 2017. Remember how little Bush got done in 2006, 2007, and 2008? Same deal with Obama. Barring a real crisis, things only ever get done domestically at the very beginning of a president's time in office, sporadically during the first term, and if he's lucky sometime between his reelection and the next spring.

Agreed.

"there was this guy on webdip who wouldn't shut up about the US becoming more and more inward."

And that same guy, without taking a breath, advocated for a policy of Dutch withdrawal from the EU.

This is like listening to Ron Paul talk about the evils of investing in gold.

Guys,

It's not the NSA that worries me in the slightest. The thing is, if you get caught spying you're not supposed to be matter-of-factly about it dammit. You act like someone who's caught and apologize, or you use the oldest trick in the book: "no comment".

You don't get to spy on the French and walk away. The French are allies in your war on terror for all their shortcomings.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Serval
http://www.lefigaro.fr/international/2013/09/11/01003-20130911ARTFIG00652-syrie-hollande-contraint-de-gerer-la-reculade-d-obama.php?page=&pagination=5

Your country doesn't like the world anymore, don't be surprised the world doesn't like it back.

...so the problem isn't spying, it's being frank about being caught about it.

...what?

What if an ugly girl comes up to you and asks you to dance with her? What do you say to her? "You're ugly so I'm not going to dance with you"? That's the truth! No, you're respectful and diplomatic: I'm sorry, I was going for a drink. Something like that. You take someone's feelings into account. YES, countries have feelings, take a look at Israel, Saudi-Arabia, Australia, or the US. We all know it's the truth, but it's no response whatsoever to the situation.

"Your country doesn't like the world anymore, don't be surprised the world doesn't like it back"

Be fair, red, the world stopped liking the US long before this recent trend of inwardness. Still, I broadly agree.

The US has traditionally done what it feels is right in terms of morality, ideology, and self interest (not necessarily in that order) and not really cared too much about global opinion. It was an attitude that, whilst annoying at times, was rather admirable.

The current President, I think, enjoyed making America popular abroad again a little too much, and when that popularity dried up seems to have taken it to heart. As much as the trend of inwardness has been around for a while, it seems to have really taken off lately. With the current administration America looks like the big kid who shrugs off insults and name calling whilst at school, but cries into his porridge when he gets home.

Analogy doesn't work; there's nothing wrong with turning down a dance and nothing to be gained by explaining your reasoning. If you're doing something wrong, however (like spying on other people), then it's in everyone's best interests for you to be frank in acknowledging that it happened and why

"What if an ugly girl comes up to you and asks you to dance with her? What do you say to her?"

"I don't dance. I'm British"

'saying “all nations” conduct spying operations'

I reckon that's true.

'French Prime Minister Jean-Marc Ayrault earlier said he was “deeply shocked”'

I reckon that's false, he can't really have been shocked. But I guess if he can sell that charade, it's points for him.

"If you're doing something wrong, however (like spying on other people), then it's in everyone's best interests for you to be frank in acknowledging that it happened and why"
Yeah it is but that's not what the US appears to be doing here, is it? "All nations do it" isn't an explanation. It has this fatigue-element that I'm seeing more and more from the Obama administration "yeah yeah, everybody's doing it, no need to make a fuss, yeah yeah, everybody hates us whatever we do, the Republicans hate us because we're democrats, the Europeans hate us because we're Americans and the Arabs hate us because we're Christian, so move along." It's like a bunch of 15 year olds are running the White House who'd rather watch TV than get up and do something useful with the 50.000 people who are full time employed by the US state department. I'm sickened by that attitude and I'm going to keep addressing it.

"The current President, I think, enjoyed making America popular abroad again a little too much, and when that popularity dried up seems to have taken it to heart. As much as the trend of inwardness has been around for a while, it seems to have really taken off lately. With the current administration America looks like the big kid who shrugs off insults and name calling whilst at school, but cries into his porridge when he gets home."

Octavious, spot on.

http://www.economist.com/blogs/pomegranate/2013/10/saudi-arabia-and-un

"The decision to reject Security Council membership may not simply reflect an angry fit of kingly pique, however. Saudi Arabia has always preferred closed-doors diplomacy to open forums. A seat on the UN council would have risked exposing, repeatedly and in full public view, the widening policy gap between the kingdom and its closest ally. This would not only represent a break with tradition, but could amount to a strategic mistake that could prove difficult to correct. As if the secretive Saudis needed reminding of the perils of greater scrutiny, deliberations at another UN body, the Human Rights Council, on October 21st, singled out the kingdom for criticism. Two leading watchdog groups, Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International, submitted excoriating reports, noting the country's failure to address discrimination against women and religious minorities, and persecution of dissidents."

" but cries into his porridge when he gets home."

These absurd analogies keep getting more opaque by the minute. Where has Obama "cried in his porridge" because of the opinions of the perpetually complaining Europeans or anyone else?

There isn't a single leader in Europe except Mutti who enjoys broad approval. Heck, in France the FN is making a comeback. They don't like any politician, so Obama isn't going to be any different. Their expectations are beyond unreachable. If you hate everybody, don't be surprised if nobody cares when nobody listens to you.

I'm awake, even though my alarm clock didn't go off today.

"This is the ugly side of diplomacy. It's true, everyone spies on everyone. Even allies. States are not moral agents, and we need to stop thinking they are. "

A vision of a better world and peaceful international cooperation has *always* been an element in US foreign policy, under *whichever* President. Not being a "moral actor" doesn't mean you don't have to act with a degree of morality.

Actually, it does mean you don't have to act morally. What the US chooses to do and what it is obligated to do are two very different things. Lately we choose to act at the bare edge of our obligations and, hey, we could tell the world to go fuck themselves and stop being the world police. But that isn't in our best interest.

I'm never too sure what it is you want from us, rh. If you just want to express frustration that Obama is a bumbling dilettante at foreign policy -- fine, I'm sure everybody can agree with that.

But you want more than that, and I honestly have little to no idea what it is that you want. Can you please say it in simple, easy-to-understand terms that even an American can understand?