Celestial*

or you saw things you THOUGHT were God's signs, but weren't.

I would like to tell you that Jesus said, " Blessed are those who have not seen, but yet believe." This is when St Thomas said he won't believe Jesus had risen till he puts his finger in the hole in Jesus' hand and in his side. When you ask for a sign you are asking for proof that God exists. The thing is once God shows you that he is real, you will believe in him only because of that not because you truly believe and love him. It gets rid of your free will to choose God or yourself. Now since God will probably not show you a sign even though you asked for one, the Devil may use this opportunity to steer you off track.

But why would they only see slmething so vivid only when they were at the point/threshold of death? Please don't think this is my sole argument for there being a god, that's not why I'm asking lol

Also don't ask us. Ask a priest.

Brainbomb. I'd say the way to find god is not to question, but rather to search. You should research C.S Lewis's journey to prove his atheistic ideals

one of Newton's law was that matter can't me created or destroyed, but only changed. How was everything created according to scientists? The Big Bang. There was nothing and then something. That can't happen unless you have a supreme being to make the Big Bang.

I like this thread... please don't let it die BB

@WolfsBane
That's not one of Newton's Law... It's the first law of thermodynamics.
Anyways, while the laws of thermodynamics work really well in small, closed systems, we shouldn't be extrapolating simplistic laws to universal scales. There's a lot we don't know about conservation of matter and energy. To name a few examples: Technically redshift in light caused by spacial expansion would lose energy on a universal scale. We also don't know where the energy for this expansion is coming from. As another example, according to our models of the early universe, there should be equal amounts of matter and anti-matter, but all we see is lots of matter and no antimatter whatsoever.

Anyways, back to the theological discussion, I especially don't like the use of gaps in scientific knowledge as a basis for faith. It leaves the possibility to have a "God in the gaps" faith which can easily lose its way as we learn more and more about the universe.

Babelfish

Weeeell Wolf, I wouldn't argue that logic. (The second one, the first is solid as a rock) The law of conservation of mass only applies to normal circumstances. In extreme conditions matter is created all of the time. In fact, at the large hadron collider, people are speeding particles up to nearly the speed of light and then smashing them together. By doing that, they are actually turning the energy of that extremely high speed into new particles(matter).

I've always been confused for why people think that something that is as powerful as God would take so much stake in a creation that is constantly fighting, killing and dehumanizing each other that have only existed for 10,000 of billions of years, instead of working on....something else. And more importantly why something that essentially just an ultra powerful dude would be so inherently good for any reason other than that they are so powerful.

Im convinced God does not care if I hate him.

I'm convinced that someone who hates god while not believing in him hates himself.

"I hate White Power Bill" ~WPB

Then you are naive.

However. My mood is improved as I am listening to Incubus and relaxing.

Eh, I wouldn't go that far brain. Assuming God exists (and any arguments about the nature of God must begin with that assumption, regardless of it's truth value), he probably wouldn't like criticism. While he may not be afraid of the words or hatred of some lowly human being, he would likely be annoyed by them and treat them like a mosquito, willing to leave it alone and have it's existence end on its own terms, but if it were to get too annoying....*swat*. And also like, even if it is from such a lowly being, he would probably like praise, because, who doesn't like being praised and reminded of how awesome they are.

You're assuming vanity on the part of someone who's supposed to be all powerful Vashta. If you run with the assumption of God, then you have to also run with the assumption that he is incomprehensible to his creations. It's just as likely he would be putting people in bad situations to test who willing to call him out for being cruel then he is to be looking for praise. Of course this is why I don't like religions. Which all claim nobody can fully understand God, yet they all devote their entire lives to acting in their understanding of God.

Anyways brain, religion is faith. If you believe in God then have faith he has a reason for what he does, even if you may not see that reason for decades down the road. Or possibly never. That's why it's called faith. If you don't believe in God, the focus on your own reality and what you can do to improve or get past your current problems. If your current path isn't making you happy, figure out what you can do to improve upon it. Seek the advice of the friends and family who's opinions you value and weigh their observations against your own. It's always surprising to see what you've missed about your own life that others see when you're going through bad times.

Assuming God exists, he would owe you nothing. So to pray and demand he give you signs is incredibly arrogant.

my view is that God doesn't care about whether or not you get what you want. "all-loving" does not mean "intervening in the free will of humanity and the order of the universe to give good things to people who ask for them".

@Dev,

If you assume God exists, then he'd have a reason for creating us. He'd be gaining something out of it, otherwise there'd have been no point in creating us. All religions run with this assumption in some form. So if God is getting something from our existence then why not ask him for help? Most religious people seem to believe that praying is something you should do. That communicating with God is important. To say it's arrogance to ask for aid in the way a religion teaches seems...contradictory to put it kindly.

there's a difference between asking for spiritual guidance and asking for stuff

jmo, I didn't say asking for aid is arrogant. I said that demanding him to give a sign is arrogant. The statement reduces him to no more than a pet. It's like asking him to roll over, or play dead, or in this case speak.

"You're assuming vanity on the part of someone who's supposed to be all powerful Vashta. If you run with the assumption of God, then you have to also run with the assumption that he is incomprehensible to his creations. It's just as likely he would be putting people in bad situations to test who willing to call him out for being cruel then he is to be looking for praise. Of course this is why I don't like religions. Which all claim nobody can fully understand God, yet they all devote their entire lives to acting in their understanding of God. "

I disagree. I mean the main difference between God and his creations is the level of power and knowledge he has. As such the reasoning for his actions may seem incomprehensible, but would easily be shown if privy to similar to similar knowledge and power. However, since these are the two main differences, it seems far fetched to think they would be so detached to ideas like vanity or not liking criticism and that we would be wholly unable to understand the nature of God. It's much like while I don't have the knowledge or abilities of the President, I can still understand what it may be like to be the President, albeit on a much larger scale.

As for why create us...I really don't understand why you would ask this question. Do you think anything would want to live in a lifeless universe with nothing to do, or would they try and make something cool.

Vashta, why do you assume that the major differences between humans and a supposed God are knowledge and power? Assuming that we are throwing out religious texts as good indicators of God's make up, that's seems like such a limited idea of the possibilities.

I mean they are the only things that any conceptualization of good has as nescesarry and logic can rule out most things like omnibenvolence.

Could you give me some other examples of God from Man?

*differences between

Further, if you are correct, I still agree with jmo. Our dislike of criticism and even hatred comes from fear, and a lack of understanding. If BrainBomb hated me, I would feel all of these emotions brought on by chemical changes in my body that would cause me to think badly of him. "How dare he not like me!" My ego flares to protect my psyche. An all knowing god would also be able to skip all of the misunderstanding we feel when criticized. We want to know why he hates us. Should we change anything so that people don't hate us in the future? God would have a core understanding of every facet of his hate and potentially not have a negative re-action. No vulnerability is a very zen space.