@Draug: the article specifically says that only 10% of campus rapes occur in a fraternity. So of course I'm very confused now that you just said "It says nothing about surveying about the details of *where* the sexual assault occurred."

I'll cede that simply ending the Greek system could be done. I don't actually think it could be, due to 1st amendment issues, but it's so utterly unimportant to the greater picture that we can proceed as though it's easily achieved. It doesn't help your argument.

OK good. Glad you caught that, I figured you must have made a small mistake there.

And no, it doesn't say *who* but it definitely lends a lot of weight against your claim that the majority of campus rapes are perpetrated by fraternities, especially in the absence of anything on your part to say otherwise.

If colleges should ban any organization that isn't explicitly educational then I suppose they also ought to ban chess clubs, Young Republicans and Young Democrats, club athletics, rock climbing clubs, etc. At its core, Greek life is just people exercising their right to freedom of association. If you ban it some people will have underground chapters (which is how fraternities and sororities got started in the early 19th century) or just throw house parties off-campus which are entirely unregulated.

Last I checked, the drinking age in the US was 21 *everywhere*. So the first 2 and a half years of college, most students are *underage*. If you really think Greek parties card their attendees or are in any way monitored...

But perhaps the problem is that underage drinking and the parties and shit *aren't* monitored and stopped. Maybe it is less the Greek system and more the fact that the Greeks are a special privileged group that the administration doesn't have the balls to smack around because mommy and daddy with withdraw their support.

With regards to freedom of association... You do realize that is already being curbed. It is illegal to be affiliated with certain groups (organized crime for instance) as the first amendment doesn't protect associations which promote criminal activity. Greek life is all about drunken parties and underage drinking. Arguably, it promotes a criminal activity and could be shut down under those grounds.

Re: those other organizations. Young Reps/Dems are very much educational as are intellectual clubs like chess club.

No more sidetracking. I'm not going to talk about frats any more. You've done nothing to demonstrate that they deserve more than the barest "common sense" amount of extra attention. 1 in 5 women American women is raped. And unless you can show otherwise there is no reason to assume that fraternities are a major cause of this.

Stop sidetracking, Draug, and ask yourself why it is SO important to you that this not be acknowledged as a problem with our society as a whole.

It's no more about underage drinking than the rest of undergraduate life. And underage consumption of alcohol is not illegal in all states, just the purchase of it. Not that your knuckle-headed argument that fraternities and sororities (we've heard surprisingly little about them) are analogous to the mafia is anything but rank ignorance of the law and Greek life.

And I don't know where the privileged idea comes from. They don't get money from the university. They're more regulated than just a house full of students on or off campus. They get no breaks on grades and at least at U of I anyone working for the university is forbidden from mentioning Greek life at all when talking to prospective students.

It's an imperfect system with problems that can and should be addressed, but, to be blunt Draugnar, you come off as wildly fascistic in your posts here. Doesn't a middle-aged man have something better to focus on than what college kids choose to associate themselves with for a few years? Let's not pretend you're not just using the rape issue (which exists, like it does anywhere) to express some anti-fraternity grudge held over from undergrad.

"Re: those other organizations. Young Reps/Dems are very much educational as are intellectual clubs like chess club."

You must have never gone to a Young Republican meeting. I was a member for a year. No educational value, just navel-gazing.

"underage consumption of alcohol is not illegal in all states, just the purchase of it."

Here are the only conditions allowed in states which allow under age drinking.

• An established religious purpose, when accompanied by a parent, spouse or legal guardian age 21 or older
• Medical purposes when prescribed or administered by a licensed physician, pharmacist, dentist, nurse, hospital or medical institution
• In private clubs or establishments
• In the course of lawful employment by a duly licensed manufacturer, wholesaler or retailer.

Arguably, only the "private club" one could possibly apply and that option is in very few states. Most states can even charge a parent who buys and gives alcohol to children not their own criminally and take their home.

Oh, and considering I went to a two year tech school and got an Associates, I have no "undergrad life". SOC had no Greek life. It was a school focused on education. No sports. No extracurricular activities. Just classes and coops. So it would be hard to hold a grudge against something I never experienced or desired to. Remember, I served my country first as a Marine, then went back to school through an accelerated program to get a degree and jump start my career in IT.

And like it or not, the Greek system at major universities like OSU is very much about the privilege. By this I mean that university donors are typically from the Greek system and their kids go on to be part of their Sorority or Fraternity. The schools know this so while they, on the surface, don't talk about it, the real punishments handed down are slaps on the wrist.

Alright, so not a grudge. But irrational hatred based on ignorance is no better.


As for privilege, links or it didn't happen. Anecdotally, at U of I the old basketball court (now used for volleyball, mostly) is called Huff Hall. It recently had an extensive annex added, which is called the Khan Annex after major donor Shahid Khan, owner of the Jacksonville Jaguars. He was a Beta and shoveled money to them in addition to his huge donations to the university. The Betas were still shut down and kicked off campus because a few brothers were involved with Champaign gangs in selling coke, without the Exec Board's knowledge. If your privilege thesis is true, one of the richest men in the country ought to have had enough pull to save his old fraternity.

Again, an anecdote. But a strong counter-example based on facts against your vague accusation against the OSU Greek system and your applying it to the rest of the country generally.

Or just keep charging forward, as if that were in any way relevant. Go ahead and talk about fraternities then. I'm sure that it's a much more comfortable subject for you. 14 women were raped in the time it took to write this. Have a nice chat.

http://publicshaming.tumblr.com/

Also this. And we don't live in a culture that blames the victim and sympathizes with the rapist?