I don't think it needs mentioning, but just as a reminder, no ongoing games as part of a tactical discussion :)

So here is one my old SoW student showed me which I thought was interesting:

After Italy's disband of Marseilles in Autumn 1906, is Germany's solo clinched? If so, how? gameID=100662

I totally like the idea, reminds me of chess of course. And I do this a lot in practice. I've introduced dozens of my friends to Diplomacy, and I'm their go-to-guy for advice on any particular game. However, I've found that it is very hard to give tactical advice on any one given position, because the style of the opponent matters a great deal.

Some opponents move very defensively, supporting their units to stand still all the time. Some take a lot of risks to get SCs. Some do creative moves with convoys. There is something to be said for tactical puzzles _assuming_ your opponent is a computer. But in practice it doesnt work like that.

Zultar - Your first puzzle couldn't be done in a real game unless you could find a way to disband every opposing unit with nobody owning a home SC as even one opposing unit could either take one of your existing SCs or block you taking the 34th. Now it could be done.in a coordinated setup, but I don't think you could do it otherwise.

Good idea. I love puzzles . . . except the one called 'life'.
Could use instruction.

We had a thread once that solved the 'getting to 34scs in the shortest time.

Zultar, your going to have to do a lot better to give a challenge.

That was an easy France win. Turkey got a solo from taking Norway, which is the only supply center he could take for the solo.

If France can prevent Turkey from taking Norway that turn then that is an easy win for France.

Its a classic AvF final turn. (1v1 variant over at vdip)

People that like puzzles don't like given solutions.

http://vdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=11880#gamePanel

this is the most recent similar example, but I could probably post more if I bothed to look

At Zultar - without looking at other threads, can you contrive a Russian 28 SC win in 1903. You are allowed to take control of all contries. All other diplomacy rules apply.

Maybe I wasn't clear with my original post. So far, I haven't seen any actual suggestion of moves.

@Fasces, I'm not saying that what I gave was hard, but I would like an actual list of moves that shows how France can win at the end (IF he didn't NMR), and the game did not start with a F vs T.

@Draugnar, the first puzzle assumes you have control over every single country and every unit. You can move and dismiss them EXACTLY as you wish. You still have to follow all the normal rules. It's as if you have convinced the other six to do exactly as you wished. It's not a trivial task to find the least number of years one would need to get to exactly 17 centers with 17 units so that they can take over the other 17 in the same year.

Uclabb has also posted another puzzle. It would be great if we could start solving them. With actual moves. :)

Sorry. Misread that last night.

The following series of moves will guarantee a French victory after Autumn 1917, regardless of Turkey's moves (note that there are faster ways to win, but they depend on Turkey making certain decisions).

Autumn 1914:
F Tun holds
F MAO-NAf
F Tyn-Wes
F GoL-Spa(SC)
A Mar-Gas
A Pie-Mar
A Mun holds
A Bur S A Mun
A Kie S A Mun
A Pic-Bel
A Lvn-Pru
A Ber S A Lvn-Pru
F Bal S A Lvn-Pru
F Nth-Nwy
F Bar S F Nth-Nwy
A Swe holds

Autumn 1914 builds:
F Bre

The following orders will be given on every remaining turn in the game:
F Tun holds
F NAf S F Tun
F Wes holds
F Spa S F Wes
A Mar holds
A Gas S A Mar
A Mun holds
A Bur S A Mun
A Kie S A Mun
A Pru holds
A Ber S A Pru
F Bal S A Pru

Spring 1915:
F Swe holds
F Nwy holds
F Bar S F Nwy
A Bel holds
F Bre-Eng

Autumn 1915:
F Swe holds
F Nwy holds
F Bar S F Nwy
A Bel holds
F Eng-Nth

Spring 1916:
F Swe holds
F Nwy holds
F Bar S F Nwy
A Bel-Den
F Nth C A Bel-Den

Autumn 1916:
F Swe-Bot
A Den-Swe
F Nwy S A Den-Swe
F Bar S F Nwy
F Nth holds

Spring 1917:
F Nwy-StP(NC)
F Bar-StP(NC)
A Swe-Fin
F Bot S A Swe-Fin
F Nth holds

Autumn 1917:
A Fin-StP
F Nwy S A Fin-StP
F Bar S A Fin-StP
F Bot-Lvn
F Nth holds

Because this set of orders is meant to be entirely independent of Turkey's orders, I do some odd (and seemingly counterproductive) things just to make sure there are no possible variations in the results of my orders, regardless of how smart (or stupid) Turkey behaves.

@Zultar: I know this was a 7-play gunboat, bur regardless of the begining of the game, this has turned into the most seen French Solo endgame for the 1v1 variant of Austria vs France. I have seen this too many times to think that this is a challenge for France, that is all I was saying. There is nothing Turkey can do to stop to the solo for France.

Here are the moves:
Picardy moves it way to Ruhr (through Belgium) so that it can create a stalemate line in Geramny. Repeated orders for germany are:
Kiel sh Ber
Ruhr and Bur sh Mun

Mao moves to West med so it can create a stalemate line. Repeated orders are:
Mars support hold Pie
GoL, WMed and Tun support hold Tyrr Sea

The only place to worry about is now Scanadvia where there are 2 supply centers up for grabs, Norway and St Pets. Not counting those 2 there are 16 scs so whoever takes them wins the game.

France is Guarenteed to take both of them.

Fall 1914 moves:
North Sea to Norway supported by Sweden
Baltic to GoB
Livonia to St Petes supported by Barents.

With those moves Turkey can't defend St Petes and bounce us in Norway. So he has to chose one of the other.

Spring 1915
Lets say he bounces in Norway. He has to disband his retreating army in St Petes.
GoB and Barents Sea support holds St Petes.
North Sea to Norway supported by Sweden and St Petes.

Since he will have at most 3 armies contending St Petes, we use 2 support holds. Since he will have at most 1 army contending Norway we only need 1 support.

Lets see he support holds St Petes instead.
We now have fleets in Norway, Sweden, St Petes and Barents. Lets see he force disbanded Livonia (we are looking at worst case here but Silesia-Prussia, Warsaw to Livonia supported by St Petes and Moscow support hold St Petes would be the best possible orders he could give in the situation, so lets assume he does that)

Sweden to Finland supported by GoB
Norway to St Petes suppoyed by Barents.

The Finland move is guarenteed to work, the St petes move is not.

Following fall (1915) there will be 2 armies support hold St Petes (Liv and Moscow) and we will have 4 fleets on St Petes (Norway, Barents, GoB and Finland). Any of them move to St Petes supported by the other 3 and game over.

No matter what happens we get a French solo at Fall of 1915, you were lucky there was an NMR by France Zultar.

as for colour all 34 scs without control of enemy units:
gameID=34739

2 things:
1) I made an error in my previous post: my orders for the fleet in Sweden in 1914 are incorrect; it reads "A Swe holds", but it should read "F Swe S F Nth-Nwy" (this extra support guarantees that the move will not get bounced)
2) The stalemate lines in the Mediterranean and Germany are more precarious than you believe. It will take too long for the army in Picardy to get to Ruhr, leaving France with a turn where he must choose whether to have Kiel support Berlin or Munich. Also, Turkey can rotate his troops on the Italian west coast, bringing more fleets to bear on the Tyrrhenian Sea and Gulf of Lyons than France can defend against. Add to that the fact that Turkey has 3 attackers on Piedmont, and you cannot hold the stalemate line you set. Fortunately, there is another stalemate line that you can hold which is slightly further back, and which I use in my post.

That said, your method will certainly work faster than mine; you just have to use the Fleet in the Baltic to support Berlin until the army in Picardy makes it to Ruhr

@What:
Next turn I will have 3 fleets support holding it will take 3 turns to rotate fleets to be able to take that down. by then I will have the solo.

As for Germany I did miss that.

I suppose forget about the fleet in Baltic, it needs to support hold Berlin.

That doesn't ammend my plan too much. I still get to force my way into Norway/St petes that turn. The only thing is I have to wait 1 more year to take St Petes while I wait for Picardy to get to Ruhr to secure Germany without the need of GoB so I can move to GoB and force take St Petes.

I remember commenting on the discussion thread for that game
threadID=724624

Controlling all units/powers, Russia can own 34 centers by after Spring 1905. It's impossible to do it sooner because you can only generate 4 units per turn, so you can't have 17 units until the beginning of Spring 1905.

There are many ways it can work. Here's one of them:

SPRING 1901
R Sev-Arm, War-Gal, StP-Fin, Mos-StP, War-Sil
T Ank-Bla, Smy-Syr, Con-Smy
A Tri-Adr, Bud-Ser, Vie-Tyr
G Kie-Hel, Mun-Bur, Ber-Mun
I Ven-Tri, Rom-Tus, Nap-Tys
F Bre-MAO, Par H, Mar-Spa
E Edi-NWG, Lon-Nth, Lvp-Wal

FALL 1901
R Arm-Ank, Sil-Ber, Fin-Swe, StP-Nor = +4 from Nor, Swe, Ank, Ber (build four armies). Owns StP, War, Mos, Sev, Nor, Swe, Ank, Ber (8).
T Bla H, Syr H, Smy-Arm = -1 from Ank (disband Arm). Owns Con, Smy (2).
A Adr-Ion, Ser-Alb, Tyr H = -1 from Tri (disband Tyr). Owns Vie, Bud (2).
G Mun-Ruh, Bur H, Hel H = -1 from Ber (disband Ruh). Owns Kie, Mun (2).
I Tys-Wes, Tus H, Tri H = +1 from Tri (build F Nap). Owns Ven, Rom, Nap, Tri (4).
F Spa H, Par H, MAO-NAO = +1 from Spa (build F Bre). Owns Bre, Par, Mar, Spa (4).
E NWG H, Nth H, Wal H = even. Owns Edi, Wal, Lon (3).
Unowned: Hol, Bel, Por, Tun, Rum, Bul, Ser, Gre, Den (9)

SPRING 1902
R Ank-Con, Sev-Rum, Mos-Sev, Nor-Lvp, StP-Nor, Swe-Den, Ber-Kie, War-Sil
T Bla H, Syr H
A Alb H, Ion H
G Bur H, Hel H
I Wes H, Tus-Pie, Tri-Tyr, Nap-Tys
F Bre-MAO, NAO C Nor-Lvp, Spa-Gas, Par H
E Wal H, Nth H, NWG C Nor-Lvp

FALL 1902
R Con-Bul(sc), Sev-Con, Rum-Ser, Sil-Mun, Kie-Hol, Den H, Lvp H, Nor-Spa = +8 from Bul, Con, Ser, Mun, Hol, Den, Lvp, Spa (build four armies). Owns StP, War, Mos, Sev, Nor, Swe, Ank, Ber, Bul, Con, Ser, Mun, Hol, Den, Lvp, Spa (16 centers but only 12 units).
T Bla C Sev-Con, Syr H = -1 from Con (disband Syr). Owns Smy (1).
A Alb H, Ion H. Owns Vie, Bud (2).
G Bur H, Hel H = -1 from Mun (disband Bur) . Owns Kie (1).
I Pie-Tyr, Tys H, Wes H, Tyr-Boh = even. Owns Ven, Rom, Nap, Tri (4)
F Gas H, Par H, NAO C Nor-Spa, MAO C Nor-Spa = -1 from Spa (disband Par). Owns Bre, Par, Mar (3)
E NWG C Nor-Spa, Wal H, Nth H = -1 from Lvp (disband Wal). Owns Lon, Edi (2).
Unowned: Por, Tun, Rum, Bel, Gre (5).

SPRING 1903
R Sev H, Con H, Bul-Aeg, Ser-Tri, Mun-Bur, Hol-Bel, Den-Hel, War-Gal, StP-Nor, Mos-StP, Lvp-Yor, Spa H
T Bla H
A Ion H, Alb-Ser
G Hel-Kie
I Tyr H, Boh-Sil, Tys C Gas-Tus, Wes C Gas-Tus
F NAO H, Gas-Tus, NAO C Gas-Tus
E NWG H, Nth H

FALL 1903
R Sev-Con, Con-NAf, Aeg C Con-NAf, Nor-Gas, StP-Nor, Gal-Boh, Tri-Ven, Bur H, Bel-Pic, Hel-Hol, Spa H, Yor H = +1 from Ven. Build 4 armies. Owns StP, War, Mos, Sev, Nor, Swe, Ank, Ber, Bul, Con, Ser, Mun, Hol, Den, Lvp, Spa, Ven (17 centers but only 16 units).
T Bla C Sev-Con =even. Owns Smy (1).
A Ion C Con-NAf, Ser-Bud = even. Owns Vie, Bud (2).
G Kie-Bal = even. Owns Kie (1).
I Boh-Sil, Tyr H, Tys C Con-NAf, Wes C Con-NAf = -1 from Ven (disband Tyr). Owns Rom, Nap, Tri (3).
F NAO C Nor-Gas, NAO C Nor-Gas = even. Owns Bre, Par, Mar (3).
E Nth H, NWG C Nor-Gas = even. Owns Edi, Lon (2).
Unowned: Por, Tun, Rum, Bel, Gre (5).

SPRING 1904
R Nor-Cly, StP-Liv, Con-Alb, Aeg C Con-Alb, Sev-Arm, Boh-Tyr, War-Sil, Mos-War, Yor H, Hol H, Pic H, Bur H, Gas H, Spa H, Ven H, NAf H
T Bla H
A Bud-Gal, Ion C Con-Alb
G Bal H
I Sil-Pru, Tys H, Wes H
F NAO H, MAO H, Tus H
E NWG C Nor-Cly, Nth H

FALL 1904
R Sil-Boh, War-Gal, Alb-Apu, everyone else H = even. Build army Sev. Owns StP, War, Mos, Sev, Nor, Swe, Ank, Ber, Bul, Con, Ser, Mun, Hol, Den, Lvp, Spa, Ven (17 centers and now 17 units).
T Bla H = even. Owns Smy (1).
A Ion C Alb-Apu, Gal-Ukr = even. Owns Vie, Bud (2).
G Bal H = even. Owns Kie (1).
I Wes H, Tys H, Pru H = even. Owns Rom, Nap, Tri (3).
F NAO H, MAO H. Tus H. Owns Bre, Par, Mar (3).
E NWG H, Nth H = even. Owns Edi, Lon (2).
Unowned: Por, Tun, Rum, Bel, Gre (5).

SPRING 1905
R Sev-Rum, Arm-Smy, Aeg-Gre, Apu-Nap, Ven-Rom, Tyr-Tri, Boh-Vie, Gal-Bud, Liv-Kie, Bur-Par, Hol-Bel, Pic-Bre, Gas-Mar, Spa-Por, Yor-Lon, Cly-Edi, NAf-Tun = +17. Owns 34 centers.
T Bla H = -1 from Smy. Owns zero.
A Ukr H, Ion H = -2 from Vie, Bud. Owns zero.
G Bla C Liv-Kie = -1 from Kie. Owns zero.
I Wes H, Tys H, Pru H = -3 from Rom, Nap, Tri. Owns zero.
F NAO H, MAO H, Tus H = -3 from Bre, Par, Mar. Owns zero.
E NWG H, Nth H = -2 from Edi, Lon. Owns zero.
Unowned: none.

Along that line, in response to Maniac: no. Russia can't have a 28 win by end of 1903 because he can't have 14 units at the start of 1903. Max position is starting 1901 with 4 units, 1902 with 8 units, and 1903 with 12 units. Even though you can own 16 centers by the beginning of 1903 (as I did in my sample moves above), you can only use four builds due to limited home centers.

@THM- Your logic is not sound there. It seems likely that a Russian could end enter 1902 with 16 centers (pick up 4 in year 1 and 6 more in year two) and 12 units then use those twelve units to end with 28 centers. I don't know if it is tactically feasible but my guess is yes.

Ohh, right. My bad.

Ok, so I had a few minutes this morning...

Here's what I have so far:

For Russia, you start with 4 units in 1901, so you can own 8 centers at the end of 1901, giving you 8 units to start 1902, which means you can get 8 more centers by th end of 1902, giving you 16 centers, and so forth. So, the recursive formula is C(n+1)=C(n)+4n for n>=1, but that's not that helpful.
If we make ordered pairs of the year and how many units are available, here's what we have: (1,4), (2,8), (3,16), and (4, 28). This fits a parabolic curve: C(n)=2n^2-2n+4 where C is the number of centers and n is the year. So, Russia can potentially win with 34 centers at the fall of 1904 (can actually take 64).

For everyone else, C(n+1)=C(n)+3n OR (1,3), (2, 6), (3, 12), (4, 21), which fits C(n)=1.5n^2-1.5n+3 for n>=1. So, the earliest 34 center win for everyone else is end of 1905. You can get a 33 center win though by the end of 1904:).

The challenge, then, is to find the moves that would allow the win by 1904 for Russia and 1905 for everyone else.

Wow- That's why I shouldn't post at 3 in the morning:

*@THM- Your logic is not sound there. It seems likely that a Russian could end 1902 with 16 centers (pick up 4 in year 1 and 8 more in year two) and 12 units then use those twelve units to end with 28 centers. I don't know if it is tactically feasible but my guess is yes.

@Zultar: You're limited by having only four Russian home centers and the inability to own more than 17 centers before the win. At the beginning of 1903, you own 16 centers and have 12 units. The best you can do in 1903 is take new centers with all 12 for a 28-center win that year (Maniac's scenario). But if you don't want to win short of 34, you can only take one center in 1903. That means you start 1904 with 17 centers and 16 units. The best you can do in 1904 is to take 16 centers with those 16 units, putting you at a total of 33. Therefore, you have to wait until you generate the 17th unit so you can take 17 units simultaneously in Spring 1905.

It still looks to me like you can't get a 34-win as Russia in 1904 (regardless of tactics). Am I missing something?

It is impossible. only 16 units could exist on the board as of the start of 04, so you would already have to own 18 and the game would have been won already for those 16 to take 16 more SCs. And even if you said the game doesn't win at 18, those last 4 units would be in homeland russia so far from the front they could reach the remaining SCs as the fleets would have to be convoying units and not taking SCs themselves.

You are right, THM. In the few minutes that I spent on the math, I forgot about the 18-win issue. It does seem that you do need to essentially waste a year to get to 17 units. Thank you for the correction. So, it does look like it's 1905 for Russia.

So, with everyone else having 3 units in 1901, 6 in 02, 9 in 03, 12 in 04, 15 in 05 and 17 at the end of 06, the earliest in 1907 for a 34SC win

All very interesting, the next time I won't an answer to a question I haven't asked I'll know where to come...Orig question was "without looking at other threads, can you contrive a Russian 28 SC win in 1903. You are allowed to take control of all contries. All other diplomacy rules apply." I should add show your working out.

i want*

I believe that Russia, despite being mathematically able to reach 34 in 05, has a bigger challenge trying to get the units to the far side of the board. I'd have to look deeper, but Germany may be able to do it quicker just because of his central location and two fleet buildable SCs. Italy having three fleetable SCs may also be up to the task.

Words are cheap!!!!

Let's see some actual moves. I don't want to go all maniac on you, Draug.

And by the way, doesn't THM's solution prove that Russia can win by the end of 1905? If so, then Germany/Italy can't possibly do it quicker due to the 17-center restriction.

Because you can control all units, the lack of home ports becomes irrelevant. My proposed solution made heavy use of the other powers' fleets to convoy my armies. In fact, I built nothing but armies. I also had two of the powers (France and Italy) take a center in 1901 so they could build fleets to complete my convoy network.

@Pete U: Shouldn't you have 17 at the beginning (rather than the end) of 1906, such that the earliest 34-SC win for a non-Russian power should be at the conclusion of Spring 1906 (rather than 1907 as you suggested)? 3 at beginning of 01, 6 at beginning of 02, 9 at beginning of 03, 12 at beginning of 04, 15 at beginning of 05, 17 at beginning of 06. This is assuming the moves work out tactically.

England's progression should be slower since it can't get three builds from the initial year.

Spending waaaay too much time on this thread now, darn you zultar!

Well THM,
It's either this or waste time looking at thucy's threads. :)

So, are you predicting 1908 for england?

@THM with a french fleet convoying the english army to bel and the fleets taking denmark and norway England can have three builds in 02

@THM - You can't own the SCs until after the fall retreats. So the official end would still have to be Builds of 1906 when you officially own the SCs.

@Maniac: Good point. I'd predict E could do it as soon as the other non-R powers then.

@Draugnar: Don't webDip games end before the fall retreat phase? (granted, that would still be after Fall 1906 rather than Spring 1906)