@Stressedlines: So your going to trust a 65 year old study about this. Back then blacks weren't allowed in combat for being 'unreliable'?

Any study done on the combat effectiveness of minorities or females before the civil rights movement, is in my opinion, useless.

we have an intergrated military, that was not the discussion.

We discussed the idea of women in front line combat units.

Thomas beat me to it. I don;t know anything about Norways army, but if Norway, Sweden, Denmark and Germany all have successful female combat veterans, then I would say that is proof of it working.

thomas, what I pointed out in that, is the reaction of the MEN in those units. It harmed unit cohesivness, something I stressed right from the start, without reading the report.

Before the civil rights? WTF does blacks being the Army have to do with the way a man reacts to trying to protect a woman, and putting his entire unit in danger? Fasces, really?

We are NOT discussing blacks here. Stop trying to detour this. This is not a damn civil rights action, as the IDF did not go thru the damn Civil rights.

Have men changedso much in 65 years that they still wont run to the aid of a woman????

fasces, I 100% doubt Germany has Female combat vets, as I pointed out their constitution forbids their military from operatinog outside German borders in such a way.

He also said no women in his nation had achieved the test scores to get into Front line units, and I still am waiting to hear about which engagements these 'combat unit' females were in.

Sweden deployed to which nation again, with any military resources? They are not part of NATO, so I am curious about that one.

Norway and Denmark (more the latter) have seen combat in Afghanistan, but I want to hear which unit had females in a combat unit and saw action.

France does have women in front line combat units, so if we are to find a true result, it may be thru them, but all searcheshave turned up empty so far.

Women make up 1.7% of their front line units.

Germany may have deployed combat units to Afghanistan, since itwas a NATO action, and thus they would have been allowed, although they generally try tokeeptheir roles in such to support roles.

How about the Dutch? They were hot and heavy in Afghanistan, maybe they have some reults we can look at.

I am not against it, but on the surface, it seems to create more problems than it solves.

Yes German units deply abroad, they are just very restrictive about it, way more than the rest of Europe, think it got something to do with the history....
for example Germany deployed, alongside the US, surface to air missiles to Turkey in support against Syria. they have about 5000 troops in Afghanistan.

IDF do allow women in front line service, but as a I said they have some restrictions on wich units females can serve in, Im afraid I dont know the specifics of this.
This article should highlight my point http://www.idf.il/1283-14787-en/Dover.aspx
It would hardly make much sense for Israel who is in a more or less perpetual state of war to spend the resources to conscript everyone and then automaticly assume that half of their soldiers are unfit for combat. You dont use money to train a combat leader to dismiss her when you need a combat leader.

Yes, the female soldiers in the infantry units of Norway and Sweden serves in front line units and they fight when there is fighting. Plenty of examples after 10 years of war in Afghanistan.

Stressedlines I'm sure a soldier would be in a mindset to protect his squad mates regardless of if they were a man or a woman. Should we have single men combat units only? No, if your squad mate was pinned down with a bullet wound it wouldn't really matter what that squad mate had between their legs now would it?

I would like to say iI enjoyed the discussion, but any mention of Civil rights has no place in this, as we are discussing something VERY different here.

Once you join the military, many of your 'rights' go bye bye.

The 2000 Equality amendment to the Military Service law states that "The right of women to serve in any role in the IDF is equal to the right of men.

http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Israel+beyond+politics/Integration_women_in_IDF-March_2009

Sweden deployed to Afghanistan? They are not a member of NATO, but I suppose they have some units deployed there as part of ISAF? Are those combat units in Afghanistan Thomas or support units?

I think they have a type of rangers unit there if I recall, and if I remember what you said, they probably dont have any women in that unit.

From waht I have read, norway deployed Air units (whcih I am ok with women serving as combat pilots) logistic teams, mine clearnace teams, and Special forces groups, which you have already said, no women have quailified for, yes?

All current norwegian forces deployed to Afghanistan are in Kabul or the north, which is far from the fighting.

Swedenis there under ISAF command, and its difficult to get a read on what and where they are. I know they have some SF unit there, which does see action, but they have no women in that unti 9at least according to what I read).

Tyran, as the IDF report said, men acted differently when it was a woman wounded, and I suggested that exact thing from the start.

I have seen squad mates go down wounded (no KIAs in my unit in kuwait, only WIAs) and I did not leave my position on any incident (but all of them were attended to quickly) , but I am not sure if it was a woman who got wounded, I would have acted the same way. I can only imagine myself taking looks over to her at all times, watching over her like a big brother, and I am sure I would not be alone in that.

Men ARE physically stronger than women (on average) and so men naturally attempt to take that 'protector' role with them. A man pinches your girls ass in a bar, you get angry. Man hits your girl, you get protective and probably lash out.

Your buddy gets in a fight 1 on 1, you generally let it go.

This is just ME, and my initial thoughts, but the IDF report sems to be ignored and they reported men acted exactly as i said I thought I would.

And to clarify, as I may have come across are more or less militant feminist here. I do not think that women should serve because they are women. I simply say that as long as they can fullfill the requiremnts they should be allowed to serve. To use the Norwegian unit in Afghanistan as an example: there is about 400 soldiers in this unit and I believe 12 of them are women. Infantry fighting is demanding and not many women can make it, but it is the performance that dictates what service you can do, not your gender. If you can do it, you can do it, tits or no tits!

If a female serves in a frontline unit and that unit are in combat, well the females fight to. I can assure you that if a girl stop working she is sent home, just as a man would. I can also assure you that the men around are proffesional enough to do their jobs regardless.

Thomas, that conflicts as to what I am reading on Jewish sites. as of today, only 88% of alljobs in the IDF are opened to women

i do know women serve in Armored units in the IDF now

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_in_the_Israel_Defense_Forces

As of now, 88% to 92%[7] of all roles in the IDF are open to female candidates, while women can be found in 69% of all positions.[1]

In 2000, the Equality amendment to the Military Service law stated that "The right of women to serve in any role in the IDF is equal to the right of men."[3] The amendment that female lawmakers had drafted granted equal opportunities to women found physically and personally suitable for a job. The question of who and what was "suitable" was left to the discretion of military leaders on a case-by-case basis

You left somethign key out Thomas, on a 'case-by-case' basis.

They seem to be able to serve in Light infantry unit roles, canine units, etc. This is notmuch different than the American army.

Let me be VERy clear here, American women have fought already, and a LOT, because there is no front line in Afghanistan, or in Iraq, and convoys getting hit required women to go to the ground and fight, but that is not the same as being in a FRONT LINE combat unit.

Front Line combat units are not units that need their moral busted up. These units train VERY hard (at least whenI was in ) and have a very aggressive edge to them. Anything that disrupts that, I dont think helps, thats all.

I have been in such units, and so I am only speaking from PERSONAL experience, but it is all I have to go on,. and on that IDF report.

Some other things I read about why the IDF stopped it, was because IDF women were being raped when captured by muslim units, and it was causing great havoc on moral in IDF units. I could actually see that also.

Thomas, again, not against women fighting front line in general, but if them serving in a mostly male unit breaks up the unit moral/cohesiveness, two things that many here are disregarding. i even suggested perhaps all female units, for those that qualified, but that quickly got shot down as 'sexist' even though, froma PURE military view, it would be the best idea I think, although it may force them to attract more attention also.

Doubt there is any GOOD solution to this.

Yeah far away from the fighting. Tell that to the families of the casualties. It's however true that the south is worse, Im not getting into a pissing contest here. At the worst the battalion averaged three-four contacts a week.

You also have to consider the fact that you will have trained with the women for some time before deployment. You get used to them pretty fast. Its not like its all of a sudden a female at your side you have to adapt to. Yeah the Swedes are there as ISAF, but not sure what they are doing. Just brought them up since they allow female soldiers. If they have only SF there I doubt there are many women.

It was the ranger units (jaeger if that is a name you know) I was referring to when I said women have not been able to pass selections. There are women in all branches and they can apply for all branches, but they must pass selection for the branch they are applying for as everybody else. One of our top olympic female skiers actually applied for the special forces. She failed, but that was because she wasn't strong enough, not because she was a woman.

Jaeger means 'hunter' in german, so I suspect it is the same They were 'Mountain units' i think in the Werhmacht in WW2, although I may have not got that right.

Thomas I was not implying people were not dying, I was only suggesting that they seemed to be more in support roles.

Sweden seems to be going to an all Volunteer Army now also, so their quailty of forces will go up with that, as will the standards makign it even harder for women to join elite combat units.

I was not in AN ELITE unit, but I was in 2nd ID and 101st, both very top notch combat divisions.

I remember, after the Gulf War, I was often on POW duty on Iraqis, and their comments about ourfemale soldiers (usually nurses and the like) made me cringe. If just the words of some POWs made me cringe, on women I had never met, how woudl I react to a woman I had been with for a long time.

I second that the woman view of some people around the world leave something to be desired. We have support units, aircraft and ships as well deployed several places, but the battalion I was referring to have one function only and that is to hunt down and kill wichever enemy the politicians have decided upon. Just dont ever say to a politician that I formulated it like this, they dont like to know what soldiers are really doing.

"The battle, sir, is not to the strong alone; it is to the vigilant, the active, the brave." -Patrick Henry in his "Give me liberty or give me death!" speech

I think anyone who can pass the physical requirements and training and everything for whichever particular military branch they are applying for should be able to fight.

Also, for the argument that the men will go crazy if they see a woman wounded or being captured, I say that any soldier worth their salt would try to save any other fellow unit member if they could. Couldn't one argue that it would be no more emotionally harmful than if instead of being a man seeing this happen to a woman in his unit, it were either a man seeing it happen to his brother, a father seeing it happen to his son (and vice versa), or anyone seeing it happen to their best friend? I think it would be no different than that.

In the end I think by far the most harmful quality someone could have for unit morale and cohesion would be along the lines of if one of the members of the unit was a complete asshole, followed by things like being a whiny coward or an irresponsible slacker. Such qualities are independent of physical traits.

I for one, as a veteran of the submarine force, couldn't give a literal shit if the person in maneuvering pees standing up or down. My only concern is are they qualified to stand watch, do they know what to do in case of a casualty, and how good are they at the movie game? (Its important... you try standing watch with the same 3 assholes for six months).

I'm glad the submarine force is getting rid of the all dude thing. I know several women from nuc school that really wanted to be on submarines, and I didn't see any reason they shouldn't...

^ what about the fear that they'll get knocked up while on (or slightly before) a 6-month patrol?

Its a nuclear warship. If I remember correctly, the Navy limits on acceptable dosage for a fetus are ~100 times less than we're allowed to get ourselves. They'd be taken off the boat and sent to shore for the duration, much like any nuclear engineer on a carrier. It would be like any other medical problem... we had 2-3 people per deployment have to be transferred off due to medical issues. It happens. We'll work around it.

"And to clarify, as I may have come across are more or less militant feminist here"
Trust me you didn't. I am very anti-feminist and have probably strongly voiced my views on feminism here in the past (I think that is why YJ was so surprised to see me come out on this side of the issue).

Since we are agreeing on this issue, I think its safe to say you didn't sound like a feminist.

I am also disappointed to see that this is probably the first time in memory that me and jack have appeared on the same side of the issue.