I lived in Vienna for six months. Prostitution is very, very legal there. Or at least brothels are. I don't see why it should be against the law, really, but I can't say I support legalizing prostitution either. I never went in one, but the brothels looked so sad from the outside. Maybe they're like strip clubs (also extremely sad, as a rule) and you really just need to go to a really good one. But I doubt it. It won't go away and regulation is probably the best way to address the issue, but as a society we shouldn't pretend that prostitution is a good thing.

I'll echo Invictus' thoughts. Legalizing will make it a safer environment for the sex workers, but we should avoid encouraging prostitution, because that's not a society we should be striving towards.

@Invictus and goldfinger0303: assuming prostitution were legal, safe, and the participants were voluntary (taking human trafficking, underage, etc. out of the equation), why do you say society shouldn't pretend prostitution is good / society should not strive toward that?

Legally, I don't see how a grown adult can be told what they can and cannot do with their body for money. One can hire their body out as a mover, a painter, a masseur, a caddy, a sparring partner for a boxer, etc., but not as a sex partner. Why one and not the other? The "sex industry" is perhaps one of the saddest aspects of modern society. The thought of young boys and girls being sold or taken into slavery, used and abused, then dumped like trash hurts me to my soul. Like most unseemly aspects of society, prohibition seems to do little to effect its presence. Legalization isn't acceptance by society, it's more a measure of resting the industry away from the slave traders, pimps, and drug pushers, and giving it adults who themselves choose to participate.

@THM - To that I really can't say much more than it goes against my personal beliefs and values. You wonder how many men who hire prostitutes are single vs how many who are not. Its just - to me - there are too many things socially and morally pushing me away from it for me to accept and encourage it. As I said, though, echoing the thoughts of Invictus and also MM (if I'm reading it correctly) I would be okay for legalization to protect the sex workers.

I guess I feel mostly the same way as ya'll. Legalize, but don't encourage. We want a society where nobody is driven that kind of life. My guess is prostitution will end when poverty does.... well... shortly after :)

Nope, prostitution will still exist. The high end "escorts" who get paid more per night than some folks make a week will still be around, and we are all just prostitutes for the man anyhow (that or we are the man).

I don' know how i can oppose prostitution's legalisation; but equally i reject the concept of paying for sex.

On a similar vein, i think some of the disease of society (depression, aniexty et. al.) should not be something which professionals can profit from. Every person should be taught how to be a gokd friend and a gokd listener; there will always be serious psychological problems which need professional help; but *MOST* people should be able to trust a friend or family member. Should have a network of such people so their partner doesn't bear the entire brunt of their personal difficulties.

If every person was taught about it in school - rather than 'when will i ever need calculus, in real life' - we might have a better society.

Same goes for prostitution; if you want random sex you should hang out with sluttly friends at slutty pubs; embrace the fact that it is free, if you want meaningful sex you shouldn't be going to prostitutes anyway; you should masturbate regularily and not be ashamed. We as a fulture could do a lot of good for ourselves i we placed less important on the penis (in sex) and on cumming. It still counts as sexual harrassment if you grab a co-worker's ass; there is more to the world of sexual activities than just 'getting it in her and spewing your seed' - we need to learn to pleasure ourselves and our sexual partners in the many ways our bodies allow. And we need something other than school sex ed OR pornography to teach people about how to do this..

Maybe legalizing prostitution could also allow a 'coming of age' ritual/sex-ed course; where young men and women learned from a professional... Maybe i should just keep dreaming...

haha Draug. I think that most women who are educated and have their basic needs accounted for wouldn't accept prostitution as a lifestyle for any price, but yes, your point is valid.

So no psychologists, psychiatrists, or other mental.health professionals eh orathaic?

Yeah Ora I don't know what you're getting at. Mental health is a real health issue, it takes years of training to deal with responsibly and professionally, and there is no reason society shouldn't be rewarding those who pursue a career in the this field.

That's not at all to take away from your main point, you can't deny the benefits of having a good support network.

Is this... is this a civil thread where everyone's respecting everyone else's opinions? As I live and breathe...

Prostitution probably should not be illegal but should remain illicit.

^Just like casino gambling in many states. Licensed and legal but still frowned upon as somehow "immoral".

I'd say more like stripping. I don't think too many parents would care if their child became a blackjack dealer. If their child became a stripper that would be a pretty big deal in many families, though. And it can't look good on a later resume when you want to be a bank teller or something, despite it being a perfectly legal job.

Actually, I was thinking of the stigma of being a gambler, not working in the casino but working the casino and making a living taking other players' money at the tables. But I can definitely see where the stripper (or adult film.star) woild be lpwer than that even though both are legal.

The only "justification" for decriminalising prostitution ( or drug use) is harm minimisation, but let's not pretend there are no victims & damage to individuals and society
The analogy of someone who "hires out their body" as a sparring partner is a good one in that there are many "legal" ways to "hire an individual" that result in damage to the individual such as working in dangerous situations without adequate safety precautions
Gambling is a good example of a legal industry that causes a lot of social damage

The comment from Yellow Jacket that "educated" women would not accept Prostitution that implies that "uneducated" women somehow find it easier to accept is, I think a bit naive and almost patronising
One of the features of high fees for a tertiary education is the number of young women studying to become professionals who use Prostitution to support themselves and pay off their Education debts -- which is one of the reasons I think Teriary Education should be funded by taxpayers as an investment in future economic productivity and students should not be loaded up with huge Education debts

@draug, YJ, you seem like you missed the bit where i said: 'there will
always be serious psychological problems which need professional help;'

Likewise i think education in how to handle your own mental health as a preventative, to spot problmes in yourself before they start.

The current increase in number suffering from diseases like depression is due to more than just an increase in diagnoisis, that urban living which seperates people from their families, breaks down communities and generally make friendships more superficial, all of which leads to poor mental health among some growing percentage of the population. (even ignoring the people left in rural areas who are suffering from the degradation of their communities ...)

Focusing on positive mental health - a goal of going from ok to happy, rather than sick to ok - would include both education on one hand and seeing support to a social network as a voluntary duty to our fellow man - taking over from the proffessionals where possible - and knowing when to direct a friend to professional help when needed. We might be able live bette lives, without hanging the services provided nor the GDP of our country. The Gross National Happiness could be a useful measure.

@invictus, why do you think prostitution should remain illicit? Personally i'd like to see A more positive attitude toward sex in our society. We currently have a very unhealthy attitude where it is forbidden and thus sought after, where some parts if male culture worship it as the highest status symbol. Even some parts of female culture see it as a symbol of pride (which is at least a level of equality) getting over our collective hangups on sex and moving on to a more positive view will not be changed by legalizing prostitution.

I don't think should feel the need to pay for sex. But legalization might serve to protect real women who today are being exploited by the trafficers who move them to supply the great demand - sure some are educated women with college fees to pay off, and are only doing for money what they could do for free as a part of the college lifestyle... Legalization would protect them from violencd of customers and help improve health risks to society.

Overall there are more benefits than risks of damage - what is the moral problem? That people will become even more hedonistic and all family life will collapse? That may have seemed like a better arguement 100 years ago. Today we have hedonism driven by our capitalism, and the prohibition on sex just drives an unhealthy obsession with sex...

Still i doubt i'd like to associate sex with work - i have barely played a computer game since i worked fulltime testing games. I seriously doubt sex workers would have healthy sex lives or be able to enjoy their sexuality, especially not those who feel forced into sex work for economic reasons...

I'm sure there must be a loophole in the laws of most Western countries to allow prostitution. I'm thinking something along the lines of a "make your own porn" business.

ha, nice. Though i'm not sure if irish law allows the production of porn... let me check....


hmm, can't find anything on the production of porn in ireland but i did find this (in relation to 'sexting' ): "(ii) Is there a "Romeo and Juliet" defence?

Suppose a 16 year old girl takes an explicit picture amounting to child pornography and texts it to her 16 year old boyfriend. Might the boyfriend be liable for the offence of possession of child pornography, contrary to section 6?

Yes. The 1998 Act (in common with other areas of Irish criminal law - consider this case involving a 15 year old boy and a 14 year old girl) doesn't recognise a so-called Romeo and Juliet defence in relation to sexual activities between children of similar ages. One might hope that in this scenario prosecutorial discretion would prevail and no prosecution would be brought - but on the face of it a crime would have been committed."

So and irish couple of 16 years of age can HAVE sex, but if they send each other photos of each other in a compromised position they can be charged with holding child pornography and added to the sex offenders register.

Madness.

an interesting read for those interested in such legally grey areas: http://www.tjmcintyre.com/2010/01/sexting-and-law-in-ireland.html

I like the bit about 'self-produced pornography' and the law. Regardless, to the question i was looking into. I suspect this means 'adult' productions are legal in Ireland.

I didn't read all the responses, but i do want to provide some information you need to really know what you are talking about.

You are taking the city of Amsterdam as an example, but it looks like you don't know anything about it. At the moment, the city is closing most of the 'windows' by force because there are a lot of problems with ties with criminals and criminal money invested. Further, the last years have proven it is very hard to distinguish forced sex workers from voluntary one. Up till now, estimates say up to 53% of girls working are forced in Amsterdam.

@Major Mitchell I don't think it's patronizing at all, unless we are having different definitions of what "accept" means.

Prostitution, as it exists in the states, often preys on drug dependency, isolation from healthy support, and ignorance. You won't find middle class women with a university degree working as prostitutes - period.

i.e. they would not and do not accept that lifestyle. Anything else you've drawn from that statement is not what was intended - and frankly it seems a bit of a stretch that you've interpreted it that way.


@Ora I did see that, but your greater point seemed to be painting mental health workers as simple opportunists while also undervaluing the seriousness of mental health issues like depression and anxiety. They may not be a danger to society, but they are hell for the person afflicted with them.

Yikes, Victorious. Thanks for the perspective. I guess it ain't all roses and cream even when legalized.

@YJ - I know of three personally. Middle class women with degrees. They also happen to be nymphomaniacs and sicovered they could make a hell of a lot more as high priced call girls so went into business together. They are in Northern Kentucky (although I don't feel free to give their info out as law enforcement might look them up).

@ora - I disagree that only "serious" problems need mental healthcare professionals. Sure, there are quacks out there, but clinical depression cannot be fixed by a support structure yet it can be "minor" enough to not need institutionalization. So it depends on what you call serious. Is it serious if a person decides to commit suicide because she is bipolar? Martha had plenty of friends and a great support structure, but she still decided one night to off herself. I miss her and think more time with a therapist might have done her some good, but in your sestimation it should have been enough to have friends and to that I say "Fuck you very much."

LOL, sorry Draug. Nymphomania and other medical disorders aside, of course... you can strike the "- period."

I'm not trying to be an absolutist, I just don't think it's much of a stretch to claim that prostitution correlates strongly with low income and ignorance. If we as a society manage to raise the standard of living for low income women, it will be that much harder to victimize them.

I agre, YJ. In general it does. But then what does the casting couch and sleeping with a director to break into the movie industry equate to? It equates to prostitution and a paycheck inthe millions once the woman has made it. Don't think Angelina Jolie fuicked a casting director at some point? I bet if we were dicks with time machines, we could go back and would discover she slept around Hollywood buig time. Look at Holly what'shername form Playboy with her own show... She was a prosttute just udner another name, fucking Hef so he'd give her more pictorials and include her on the Playboy mansion show.

Hollywood is full of prostitutes and they all appear on the little or big screen. They just don't like to admit that is what they are.

Well Draug, even if you characterize that kind of thing as prostitution, it's not really the kind I'm worried about - though I can see that the promise of fame made to the gullible is only a short step down from there.