so... what you are saying is it is scary... considering we are not some Jeffersonian ideal of independent yeoman farmers (which never existed in the first place)

" It is only 'scary' when the great bulk of the public is dependent upon other people (corporate payroll or government welfare checks) for their survival."

So it's only scary in modern society. Gotcha.

And the DNC didn't have Acorn register dead people and pay workers by the rsgistration for getting registered Democrats with the "Get out the vote" bullshit? Arguing dimples amd hanging chads is one thing. Fraudulent registrations so voters can vote more than once is another. And if you bring up voter ID, well, sorry but I think you *should* have to prove who you are with a government issued ID card and not just some stupod fucking school ID which isn't verified with a birth certificate, social security card, or passport.

It is only scary if you believe every business owner and government bureaucrat is going to pour through the voting rolls to find out how everyone voted and take punitive actions against 'bad' voters. I can't speak for the government, but no business owner I know cares about how their employees vote. Or at least, not enough to be willing to fire them or engage in some other kind of retaliation. And if they did, I'd be the first to volunteer for the vigilante posse that burns their business down in the middle of the night in retaliation for their retaliation - no matter how the voter voted.

(if you yearn for more civilized methods of justice, I imagine that a law adding voting habits to the list of things people can't be discriminated against for would pass immediately in every state in the union)

And actually, now that I think about it, I can think of incidents where government thugs intimidating voters into disavowing signatures on recall petitions and other such democratic instruments... but why is there no clamor for making recall petitions as secret as election ballots?

The secret ballot is a great thing. You're a crazy person.

"It is only scary if you believe every business owner and government bureaucrat is going to pour through the voting rolls to find out how everyone voted and take punitive actions against 'bad' voters."

Perhaps because they have no way of finding out... and despite your promise of vigilante justice, I would rather avoid coersion of any sort.

"(if you yearn for more civilized methods of justice, I imagine that a law adding voting habits to the list of things people can't be discriminated against for would pass immediately in every state in the union)"

As the GOP specifically targets "Urban Voters" ability to get to the polls. Good one "libertarian"

"The secret ballot is a great thing. You're a crazy person."

If secrecy is such a great thing, would you also favor secret recall petitions? Secret initiative petitions? How about secret secret city council votes? Most city and town council people are part time, and depend on someone else for a living. What about congressional roll call votes? Isn't the final vote total all that counts in the end?

Sorry, but secret ballots are necessary...what is gained by an open ballot anyway, I might ask?

And can you honestly say it outweighs the (seemingly obvious) risks that open ballots incur?

"As the GOP specifically targets "Urban Voters" ability to get to the polls. Good one "libertarian""

I fail to see the argument here, as this is going on with your sacrosanct "secret" balloting system.

"And can you honestly say it outweighs the (seemingly obvious) risks that open ballots incur?"

As someone who has seen first hand how easy it is to fix a 'secret' election - YES! THE BENEFITS OF A TRANSPARENT ELECTION SYSTEM OUTWEIGH THE RISKS.

Tolstoy, you're proving why the Libertarian Party isn't going anywhere. Who opposes the secret ballot in 2012?

Thank you, Invictus.

I'll +1 that and let that stand as my response as well (seriously, Tolstoy?)

Well, I do. If I can use this forum to spread the word about the dangers of anonymous voting systems, I will do it. I wouldn't make it the centerpiece of any political campaign I ran, however, because I recognize this is not an issue that most people care about. I will raise it so that the dozen or so people reading this thread get to hear the argument, though, because this may be the only place they will ever hear it. If one person thinks seriously about the issue - even if they do not wind up agreeing with me - then my posting will not be in vain.

That's almost the definition of your posting being in vain.

In the UK, where there is a supposed secret ballot too, every voting slip has a number on it - the voter's registration number -
Make a threat on the slip and the police will most likely knock on your door. Vote for a fringe party and the ''powers that be'' will know about it.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/notesandqueries/query/0,,-1051,00.html

^ Party affiliations are already essentially public record in most states. Register as a communist or libertarian (assuming it is legal in your state - in many, it is not) and The Authorities - as well as employers - will know about it no matter how you vote if they really want to.

It "not being legal" probably just means that there is no state party there. It's all quite expensive even if you have a bunch of support, which third parties obviously don't. Show me some proof that it's illegal to be a registered communist or libertarian in any state.

Open ballots are mandatory for elected officials so the public knows how they are being representrd. It is their vote,after all, not the politicians despite what he may say. But private ballots provide security from prohibition era gangsters getting in office through intimidation. It's bad enough the Chicago way still runs Chicago and we got one of them in the White House, but it could be worse with open ballots. The means of voting should be transparent, but not the votrs themselves. Checks to validate the voters identity need to be in place and to verify that aren't voting multiple places, but the recorded vote should not be attached to the identity.

Tolstoy isn't as paranoid as you think. This was abolished in California only four years ago.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/may/16/usa1

Actually, that would be a strike against Tolstoy's call for transparent voting. Because that law would have made voting for the communist party candidate a dismissable offense if your employer found out.

Again, general ballots should always be private, but getting to the position to vote should require identification with a full system of checks to reduce voter fraud. The only time public voting should not be private is "absentee ballots" to prevent someone from gettign hundreds of absentees and using them all to stuff the ballot box.

But voting by elected officials should always be transparent because the public official is representing the public, not himself.

"I can't speak for the government, but no business owner I know cares about how their employees vote."

Yes, of course, business owners are completely indifferent to how their workers vote. http://www.allgov.com/news/unusual-news/another-case-of-being-fired-for-supporting-obama?news=840003
Jesus, how can someone so cynical and paranoid about everything be so naive when it comes to the conduct of capitalists.

And since Paulies like Tolstoy want to gut every single worker anti-discrimination law in existence because it violates 'free enterprise', say goodbye to any leftist or anybody who is non-white having a job.

Just out of curiosity, has the Ron Paul nomination from 6 states (one more than the required threshold), the Maine delegation walk-out, and the booing of the bylaws changes made it to television? The youtube clips I am seeing make it clear that there has been a small rebellion in progress on the floor... I am wondering if this has made any mark on the "mainstream" media coverage or if it has all been squelched by the folks in control of the TV cameras and microphones.

^WAS that the Paulites booing last night during the pro-Romney stuff (not the anti-Obama stuff everyone was supposed to boo at, the pro-Romney build up act?)

I thought I heard some booing among the cheering and saw a few people leaving...