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A place to discuss topics/games with other webDiplomacy players.
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Persephone (100 D)
06 Sep 09 UTC
Draw request by an unwilling
Has anyone been bullied into drawing a game when they were winning? This recently happened to me, and although the men I was playing with claim this is not the case, I really feel it was. One player decided to gang up on me and the rest joined in until I caved. I know its fair to vote in favour of the majority, but the only person it seemed to hurt was me.

http://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=12631
21 replies
Open
Crazyter (1335 D(G))
06 Sep 09 UTC
Labor Day Live
LIVE GAME today (Sunday) and/or Monday (holiday in US). I can start 3 hours from now. As soon as we get 7 people, lets go.
18 replies
Open
LJ TYLER DURDEN (334 D)
07 Sep 09 UTC
More Questions
Continuing the Q and A session from the thread about four Russian builds in 1901...
8 replies
Open
kaner406 (356 D)
07 Sep 09 UTC
"48 hr Gunboat" EGS
End Game Statements here.
6 replies
Open
denis (864 D)
07 Sep 09 UTC
Live game
Napolean and Snowball
5 point buy in
1 hour phases
advertise people
0 replies
Open
hellalt (24 D)
06 Sep 09 UTC
a big apology
I believe i have insulted a lot of you people out there...
27 replies
Open
hellalt (24 D)
07 Sep 09 UTC
enemy at the gates
new game. 24hrs/phase. 10 D bet. PPSC. join in.
http://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=13211
2 replies
Open
hellalt (24 D)
07 Sep 09 UTC
the php league
hey ghostmaker
i was just checking the leagues at http://phpdiplomacy.tournaments.googlepages.com/thephpleague
is there any way to participate in any of them?
i'm really interested in this.
1 reply
Open
redcrane (1045 D)
07 Sep 09 UTC
new game: DON'T MAKE ME AUSTRIA
http://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=13214
0 replies
Open
DingleberryJones (4469 D(B))
06 Sep 09 UTC
Spies are Everywhere Game Variant - Who's in?
Post your interest here
26 replies
Open
Timmi88 (190 D)
05 Sep 09 UTC
Finland
Is this the most unimportant territory/province on the board?
51 replies
Open
spyman (424 D(G))
07 Sep 09 UTC
What is metagaming?
Exactly what is it? Is it always unacceptable? Are some forms acceptable? Or just unavoidable? Is it possible to make rules to stop the most pernicious forms of metagaming?
8 replies
Open
Perry6006 (5409 D)
07 Sep 09 UTC
Once more over the top! - New WTA 30Bet Game!
http://www.webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=13209
0 replies
Open
tailboarder (100 D)
06 Sep 09 UTC
Game message counter
I like to look at the message counter when choosing opponents. I prefer playing the chattier players. I was over 800 the las time I checked and now I am back to 0. Did I break my counter???
No I know better, but will that be back up?
3 replies
Open
denis (864 D)
07 Sep 09 UTC
Cheap and moderate phase length WTA
Abba tribute
5 D
48hour phases
1 reply
Open
obiwanobiwan (248 D)
05 Sep 09 UTC
Obiwanobiwan's NFL Preseason Picks
It's that time of year again- when America straps on the helmets, teams start towards the Superbowl, and the rest of the world asks:
1. Why are Americans so crude?
2. They call THAT violence? Should see a England-Germany match! ;)
My Picks inside...
12 replies
Open
Vaftrudner (2533 D)
07 Sep 09 UTC
What do I do if someone sends a letter in a gunboat?
What do you recommend? Do the mods get involved in variant games?
4 replies
Open
orathaic (1009 D(B))
04 Sep 09 UTC
Why do you value the message of Jesus?
If you don't then there is no need to explain, though feel free to state that you do not.
42 replies
Open
jman777 (407 D)
30 Aug 09 UTC
Is there a God?
I don't really know, what do you all think?
Page 9 of 9
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Zman (207 D)
05 Sep 09 UTC
Ladies and Gentlemen,

I dont have the time, unfortunately, to read all posts on this thread. But if a believer has posited a cogent answer to my relatively simple question asking God why he doesnt show up in the sky and tell us he exists and what his true message is, then I have the following story to relate (my apologies but this will be a long post - but well worth reading):

I only met my paternal grandfather a handful of times before he died. I remember him being a very sad person. Like something in his past weighed him down. After he died, i asked my father what that could have been. My faher told me.

My parents are muslim Indians, who lived in the province of Punjab in 1947 when the partition of the Indian continent occured. As most of you will know, the partition of Punjab occurred along religious lines (muslim majority Punjab went to Pakistan and Sikh/Hindu majorioty areas went to India).

M y father's family happened to be Muslims in the Hindu/Sikh majority area. My father is was too young to remember any of this. But when I asked him after my grandfather's death about why he always seemed so sad, this was my father's answers:

In August of 1947, the shit was hitting the fan in Punjab. Muslims were trying to get to Pakistan, and Sikhs and Hindus were trying to get to out of Pakistan into India. The madness and mayhem on each side was beyond comprehension. Mt father's family lived in Amritsar, which was on the Indian side of the new border, and they all lived together in an extending family system (i.e. my grandfather and all his brothers and sisters lived together in the same little house...along with my grandfathers new wife, and their new-born son-my father).

My grandfather had 3 brothers and one sister. And he was a prominent member of the Muslim League (even though his family warned him that such allegiance could lead to trouble down the line). He adored his one sister.(or so i am told. My grand-dad never spoke of her). In August of 1947 the Hindus and Sikhs went ape-shit, and started a campaign of mass-murder against muslims in Indian-denominated Punjab which resulted in hunders of thousands of casualties. (I am not saying the Muslims were innocent victims as the same atrocities occured against hindus and sikhs on the other side of the border).

But one afternoon, before my grandfather's family could evacuate, a mob of hindus showed up at my grandfather's house. They beheaded his brothers in front of his eyes. They then gang-raped his sister, and then carved her up while she was still alive, piece by piece and fed the body parts to their hunting dogs.

The only reason they spared my grand-dad, grandmother and infant father was becuase my grandma cracked and told then where the other muslim league leaders where hiding. (they were also slaughtered).

My question to those who think God is out there and beneficient and looking out for us. Where the FUCK was God in Punjab in 1947? More importantly, the violence which resulted in 1,000,000 casualties in those 3 horrific months in the Indian Sub-continent, were due to REIGIOUS differences. God could have prevented all that by showing up in the sky in AD 1000 and saying, "Guys, stop killing each other, everyone believe in X.."

He didnt. And his failure to so show up, resulted in my grandfather's sister being gang-raped and murdered by religious fanatics. Is he God? Sounds like allowing these atrocities to occur (and there have been thousands, I only relate one which is from semi-personal experience) is something Satan would do. Not "God". Not when he can simply show up and tell the murderous Sikh hordes, or the Taliban, or Al Qaida, that theyre FUCKING WRONG.
muni3 (178 D)
05 Sep 09 UTC
Why doesnt he?
muni3 (178 D)
05 Sep 09 UTC
i mean, why doesnt he/she/it just show up, and end the debate? and zman, that is a heart wrenching story. i can see why your grand dad was a sad man for the rest of his life. i would say there are millions, not thousands, of examples of the same. from the crusades to the 30 years war to the holocaust to current day palestine...im sure brutal rape and murder in the name of religion numbers in the millions, not the thousands.
ag7433 (927 D(S))
05 Sep 09 UTC
It's about rejection. He gives a choice and those thay reject him he burns for eternity. Why should he be the 'cool' guy that comes back like a lose to high school after graduating in hopes for acceptance? He's god, man. God. He doesn't have to prove himself. He's God. If you were God would you go showboating around like a loser hoping to cop a feel from a freshman girl? He is God! He's done enough and shown enough. If you can't see it than you are basically rejecting him and that is a sunk cost to him for this business of finding the people who will be truely dedicated to him.

You really think God should be like the guy in Superbad who invites the highschool kids to a college party to look cool?
muni3 (178 D)
05 Sep 09 UTC
Ag,

I dont think he should be show boating. But id showing up once, or giving one iota of empirical proof that he exists considered show boating? Like you say, he is God! Why not tell us in no uncertain terms he is out there. And more importantly, tell us what we are suppossed to believe?

Ag, I dont know what your belief system is. But had you been born in Saudi Arabia, you would be a muslim. (Unless you think Jesus' message is so strong that he would have penatrated your upbringing and reached your "soul" and banished the "evil" musilm thoughts that your parents taught you. (Doubtful)

My point is that so much death and destruction occurs bc humans fight about what the "true" message is. There will never ever be human consensus on this question. Why doesnt he just show up and tell us?
muni3 (178 D)
05 Sep 09 UTC
And what do you mean "rejection"? If I was born in Saudi (i was not, but assuming i was)
and my parents and grandparents and aunts and uncles brought me up as a muslim, and I lived a good muslim life, according to you I would "burn for eternity" because I rejected Jesus' message? Does that make sense to you? That God would punish me for eternity because I happened to be born to a Muslim family in an Islamic country rather than being born to protestant christians in Alabama?
bonbon (100 D)
05 Sep 09 UTC
Actually the reaosn the bible has you burn in hell if you dont belive in that version of Religon is because if u you belive you will burn in hell you will want to follow therfore giving the religon more power because it now has more members to donate and fight for it
MajorMitchell (1874 D)
05 Sep 09 UTC
i don't know why some people expect God to be more "interventionist" jumping in to stop the evil that we inflict on each other. Isn't it about us collectively & individually finding our way to enlightenment, what would be the point in having that "just handed to us on a plate"
orathaic (1009 D(B))
05 Sep 09 UTC
and, i believe that musli8ms consider jesus a prophet, and follow his teachings, he's just not as important to them as the final prophet, mohamed.

and if humans choose to kill each other over religious differences, or different nationalities, or because your hair isn't blonde and your eyes aren't blue, then that is what humans choose to do. No religion advocates the killing of people just because they are different. People fear those who are different, and attack that which they fear. whether it is a religious difference or not.
orathaic (1009 D(B))
05 Sep 09 UTC
if you think God would simply have to intervene if he existed that just demonstrates what i've been saying. Humans can't comprehend an omniscient/omnipotent God.

This does not amount to proof that God doesn't exist, it merely proves that you don't understand God.

Also given the fact that God hasn't come down and given us definitive proof, It is up to us humans to work out these little issues on our own.
I'd second that orathaic. To say that anyone knows how God would/should act is bordering on the fallacy of omniscience, if not stepping into it outright. We cannot say for certain what another human is thinking, it becomes even harder to understand a creature from a different species (lacking direct communication).
I'd go further in stating that all of the specualtion that "God should appear and do thus and such" really misses the mark for me as a believer. That is I don't find it compelling. I understand that it's a tenet of your belief that this is the only existence that any of us will have, but how compelling could that possibly be to someone who believes that there is another more permanent existence. Certainly, it looks to you that God is somehow evil or uncaring because you don't take into consideration that we think of this life as transitory. For me, God is certainly not evil, I expect him to be concerned with eternal issues and not earthly ones. It merely that his priorities are straight. I'd be upset if he was continually coming to set things right in my life, but cared little for my salvation. It amounts to he exists.....and he's not evil, or he doesn't exist....and he's not evil.
** your- being in the general sense of an atheist's beliefs** not necessarily orathaic
Now, in going back and reading some of the earlier posts. I'd echo muni in outrage that anything so heinous, as happened to zman's great aunt, would occur. That's certainly a heart wrenching story. It's important to realize though that it's an anecdote and even a hundred such stories doesn't generalize to Muslims or Hindus in general. The same Muslims and Hindus were peacefully and sucessfully marching side-by-side the year before to acheive Indian independence. They did so under strong and good leadership on the part of Mahatma Ghandi (who was certainly a religious person). These people had lost that leadership through the act of one extremist and the horrific actions that took place as people fled to Pakistan or India were the actions of mobs. Mobs can easily turn violent for whatever reason. This particular time it was Hindu vs. Muslim, but it could just as easily be White vs. Black or Fascist vs Jew.

That doesn't excuse the actions of any individual, but likewise it doesn't nothing to indict God for not showing up. If he showed up everytime one human found a reason to hate another the sky would be continually on fire with blazing memos from Heaven.
orathaic (1009 D(B))
06 Sep 09 UTC
from the general prespective of an atheist, or someone who believes only in the material world, (so maybe accepting a non-interventionist god, but still not believing in the afterlife)

i do think it is really horrible what people are capable of doing to each other, but it doesn't make me think God is evil, or must not exist. I makes me think humans are terrible animals at times, destroying others for what they see as protection of whatever they value.

but whether I believe in God or not, it doesn't mean i actually differ from Crazy Anglican, with his belief which is effectively 1) individuals are to blame for their actions; 2) God isn't there to stop every poor decision and dictate every action we take 3) Humans acting en-mass can do horrible things...(there is a really good social game called mafia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mafia_(party_game) If you don't know it you should try it out with some friends, it's like diplomacy without a board or militrary tactics )
ottovanbis (150 DX)
06 Sep 09 UTC
Things can only truly exist if they are believed/conceived in the human mind. Ergo, humans created God in their own image.
positron (1160 D)
06 Sep 09 UTC
God's existence is a matter of faith. Asking whether God exists is like asking a dweller of flatland whether the 3rd dimension exists.
orathaic (1009 D(B))
06 Sep 09 UTC
@ottovanbis: incorrect. though i can't prove it, I believe things exist which are not believed in or conceived of by human minds.

@positron: am i correct in assuming that for a dwellers of flatland it doesn't matter whether the 3rd exists. In this case do you think it doesn't matter to humans whether god exists. I'd like to support this proposal, It doesn't matter because we have to live our lifes anyway.
orathaic (1009 D(B))
06 Sep 09 UTC
- not that it doesn't matter whether we have faith or not, just that it doesn't mater if God exists or not.
spyman (424 D(G))
06 Sep 09 UTC
"God's existence is a matter of faith. Asking whether God exists is like asking a dweller of flatland whether the 3rd dimension exists."

That is an interesting analogy, but I am not sure if it is apt. The third dimension is something that the flatlanders may not be able to conceive; perhaps there are things beyond our comprehension too; but that doesn't mean that those inconceivable things are the same thing as God.

@positron I'd agree that the debate over God's existence isn't necessary (as neither side can offer conclusive evidence for or against His existence), but...

@orathatic

...that is certainly not the same as saying that His existence is not important as it will influence how many people live our lives. (ie. you may make different choices in life than I do based to some extent on our beliefs on the subject). In the same way the flatlanders may care more about the existence of a 3rd dimension (and it becomes more important in their everyday lives) if there is a way for them to one day gain a 3 dimensional existence.
@ ottovanbis

"Things can only truly exist if they are believed/conceived in the human mind. Ergo, humans created God in their own image."

An interesting point, I'd agree with it partially. For humans to perceive something it must be believable and conceivable to them. Hence many of us say "I can't believe my eyes", but we trust things like the scientific method and eye-witness testimony nonetheless.

I'd disagree, however, that anything's existence is dependent on human credulity. To take that point to its extreme, humans would be creating entire galaxies as they first came into range of our telescopes (or at the very least altering them as we find a new aspect of them that nobody anticipated). Hence humans would be the creators of the Universe.
positron (1160 D)
07 Sep 09 UTC
A sphere passes through flatland and is seen by two residents, one has faith in the 3rd dimension. Both see a point turn into a segment that grows and then shrinks back to a point. One sees his faith affirmed. The other asks for proof. Both look at the other and wonder why anyone would think like that.

It's been a while since I read it, but I still can't shake the weight of the argument.

It boils down to faith. You pick what you have faith in. That choice makes all the difference. Promise of receiving something in the future based on the faith you express now is just faith in another form: faith that promises will b kept. Does this mean that faith in the invisible pink unicorn carries weight? No. I've often asked programmers if they had faith in their code. Would you bet your life on it?

Back to the original question, "Does God Exist?" I lack faith that god exists. I envy those who do.
I'm curious as to why you'd envy someone for believeing something that you do not, but state that you pick what you have faith in. Could you not just choose to have faith in that which is most beneficial to you? Faith, like anything else, grows stronger when exercised. I agree with you that you choose what you have faith in, but that does not mean that you'll not have doubts along the way. As you move more solidly into your chosen path then the doubts become less important (which is not to say that they disappear).

In the same way it may seem to some that I don't care if God exists or not (by the way that I argue), but that's far from the case. I just think that arguing His existence is much like a game of tic-tac-toe; two skilled players will invariably end in a cat game (On that, I believe, we agree). God's existence is of great importance. Arguing about it is of no importance. For me there is enough reason to be a Christian without knowing something, that I've already accepted, that I'll never know for certain.

Pascal's wager is only troublesome if you accept that by living a certain way you're missing or being cheated out of something. When provided with two basically equivalent choices, why not choose the possibilty of eternal life? Then, when faced with myriad choices, Christianity has much to offer.


263 replies
jarrah (185 D)
06 Sep 09 UTC
New game - 55 pts WTA, 24 hours
Hi everyone, I'd love to start a game with the above specs... But as I don't have enough points due to the silly rules, if anyone would like to start it, I promise to be the first to join!! Cheers.
6 replies
Open
Steve1519 (100 D)
06 Sep 09 UTC
Walnut Creek
I'll join if I get the password! (I'm relatively new, and I don't know any other way of getting the password - apologies if I'm breaching a protocol; if there's another way of getting passwords, please let me know.)
2 replies
Open
kestasjk (64 DMod(P))
04 Sep 09 UTC
Small code update
I've been getting 0.9x ready for release now that the bug count is starting to decrease, with comments and optimizations, see inside for details and to post bugs.
43 replies
Open
Troodonte (3379 D)
06 Sep 09 UTC
Live game?
I'll be back in about 2/3 hours and I'm up for a live game.
Please post your interest here.
2300 - 2330 GMT
5 replies
Open
jarrah (185 D)
06 Sep 09 UTC
FIRST PERSON TO POST WINS!!!!!
The title is self explanatory.
8 replies
Open
MadMarx (36299 D(G))
06 Sep 09 UTC
Problem with blackberries?
Overnight I now can't get any new messages on my cell phone... I can enter orders, but hope people in my games don't think I'm ignoring them...
8 replies
Open
jeesh (1217 D)
06 Sep 09 UTC
Quick Question about leavers
Does the computer automatically help a leaver's armies and fleets retreat? i.e. if I take a leaver's territory which has an army in it, will it automatically retreat to the nearest territory?
1 reply
Open
Tuhin (100 D)
05 Sep 09 UTC
Question about gunboat game rule?
What one should do if in a gunboat game, another player sends msg and proposes non agression pact? There was no attacking before the proposal.
10 replies
Open
Mack Eye (119 D)
05 Sep 09 UTC
Mod needed!
2 players in one of my games (giapeep, mathesond) can't log in to the site - they get an 'invalid username' error. They've deleted their cookies, and still no luck. Can one of the mods take a look at this?
4 replies
Open
denis (864 D)
06 Sep 09 UTC
36 people are logged on so can anyone say
Live game!!!!!!!!24hour phasesso it can be continued latter
7 replies
Open
denis (864 D)
26 Aug 09 UTC
Views on Goerge Orwell Great Politicain and Writer, or Pessimistic Pundant
Well it is interesting his great peice Animal farm was written when admiration for Stalin and USSR was at its height in Britain and US. We can all see today that the Totalitarian nightmare that was predicted never came about does this mean that all that pessimism was rubish and that that glim future was not possible?
160 replies
Open
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