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A place to discuss topics/games with other webDiplomacy players.
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Slyguy270 (527 D)
28 Apr 14 UTC
The search for understanding?
My very own 90-day challenge.

(Because I just don't know when to quit...)
Slyguy270 (527 D)
28 Apr 14 UTC
Something I’ve noticed lately, as I’ve read online forum debates, is that people are really bad at understanding the people that they’re arguing against. Usually the more controversial the topic of discussion is, the worse it gets. Each opposing side has their own strong views and can’t see how on earth anyone could ever possibly disagree with them. Both sides see the other as fundamentally stupid and illogical, because they often don’t fully grasp what their opponents’ views actually are. This lack of understanding is especially prevalent when it comes to political and religious discussions, as the opposing sides’ views are much more likely to be based on entirely different ideological foundations.

I’ve specifically seen evidence for this in our forum discussions regarding Christianity. For the large part, those of us arguing for Christianity grew up in the Church and have never really known what it’s like to see things from a different ideological platform. Many of us likely accepted the Bible as truth from a young age and have been learning the teachings of Christ for most of our lives. As a result, we sometimes have a hard time explaining our faith to those who grew up on different beliefs not akin to our own. We expect unbelievers to either “just have faith,” or to see the logic in our arguments, without realizing that they haven’t been able to build up the same foundation as we have. We expect to be able to build a temple without laying the foundation first. The best way for us, as believers, to be good witnesses is not to endlessly debate over various little aspects of our faith; but to lead others to build a foundation in God's word. When we argue over bits and pieces of Christianity, we often seek to validate our own intelligence by proving others wrong; not to share the truth with others. Why do we do this? Do we assume that our words and our finite wisdom can do a better job at leading someone to faith than God's own words and God's infinite wisdom? Instead of arguing in circles all day long, let's let God's Word do most of the talking.

Some of us, realizing this, have encouraged unbelievers to go read the Bible claiming that, “If only if they would read the Bible, surely then they would believe!” But how do we expect them to understand what they're reading unless someone with understanding explains it to them? If I were to walk up to a Geometry teacher and ask them for help understanding geometric concepts, should they just tell me to go read my textbook? Or should they sit down with me, open the textbook, and explain to me what it meant? I might understand its teachings on my own, or I might just give up in frustration, claiming that Geometry was a stupid and useless class.

I admire the work that some of you have done to try and show the Bible to others; but only hearing bits and pieces of the Bible will not always give a person understanding. For this reason, I'm going to make a proposition: that all of us who are interested undertake a 90-day challenge to read through most/all(?) of the Bible. I, (and anyone who's interested in helping me), will compile daily readings and post them in this thread, so that we will have read through most/all(?) of God's word by the end of the 90 days. Accompanying these daily readings will be an explanation and interpretation of the selected passages designed to answer any questions that the reader may be having. These explanations will be put together by me and any other believer who'd like to help. Participants will then be able to ask any additional questions that weren't answered by our explanations. Through this challenge, I hope that all of us may grow closer to Christ, and failing that, at least gain a better understanding of Christianity.

This plan is very much in the planning stages so I'd appreciate any suggestions, comments, or even criticism you guys could give me. Please comment if you might be interested in participating, or even if you just want to tell me how horrible of an idea this is. Thanks for reading, I appreciate it! :)
Slyguy270 (527 D)
28 Apr 14 UTC
Basically, it's a revamped Bible-reading thread with the eventual goal of reading through, and studying, the entirety of the Bible.
Thucydides (864 D(B))
28 Apr 14 UTC
(+4)
Should I start my own daily updates thread too Lol. "Thucy's adventures in applied utilitarianism, part 1 of N"
Slyguy270 (527 D)
28 Apr 14 UTC
(+1)
Thucy I've never muted anyone before, but you just might be the first...
KingCyrus (511 D)
28 Apr 14 UTC
Hm, interesting. I won't be on much over the next two weeks, but once I am available, I would be interested.
How much of the Bible are you going to be using, and in what order?
Slyguy270 (527 D)
28 Apr 14 UTC
That's what I wanted to discuss. I was hoping we could get through the vast majority of it, but I could see us just skimming some of the Old Testament Prophets. They're rather tedious to get through at times.

As for the order, I'd probably combine different parts each day. It wouldn't be strictly chronological, but it would still make sense. I'd have one main section a day, accompanied by a couple verses of Proverbs/Psalms I think. Like I said, any suggestions or comments are greatly appreciated.
Thucydides (864 D(B))
28 Apr 14 UTC
(+1)
Why so hateful slyguy
I could buy skimming the OT prophets, ya. I like the idea of intermixing Psalms and Proverbs with other books going more in sequence.
Ogion (3882 D)
28 Apr 14 UTC
Sounds interesting. I am clearly not Christian but was kind of thinking spit reading the bible. I've only read pieces. I might tag along
bihary (2782 D(S))
28 Apr 14 UTC
(+1)
I am in. I have tried to read the bible numerous times, but I am always stuck at the beginning. I just cannot get over the basic premises, like:
1. The creation story sounds so much like the writing of a semi-educated man from BC times, I simply cannot see it as God's words, not even in a metaphorical sense. (Plants before the Sun? Come on!)
2. The act of eating from the tree of wisdom, as the fundamental sin? Why is it a sin? Isn't intelligence what makes us human? And from then on, everybody is born as sinful by default? Distasteful for me, be it literal or metaphorical.
3. And then, on and on, God punishing individuals, or whole nations, or the whole humanity, without any proportionate reason, while His chosen righteous people do all kinds of disgusting things.
SYnapse (0 DX)
28 Apr 14 UTC
(+3)
Why is no one doing a Quran thread? in b4 a load of comments about islamofascism, I've actually read the Quran and its a far better read than the Bible.
semck83 (229 D(B))
28 Apr 14 UTC
"I've actually read the Quran and its a far better read than the Bible."

Wow. Never thought I'd hear that one, I must say. But I suppose taste is just that, taste.
kaner406 (356 D)
28 Apr 14 UTC
and muted.
TheMinisterOfWar (553 D)
28 Apr 14 UTC
(+3)
Well, the Gospel of the Flying Spaghetti Monster was a far better read than either.

I'm not sure readability was the key indicator here.
SYnapse (0 DX)
28 Apr 14 UTC
Semck have you read the Quran?
SYnapse (0 DX)
28 Apr 14 UTC
(+1)
"2. The act of eating from the tree of wisdom, as the fundamental sin? Why is it a sin? Isn't intelligence what makes us human? And from then on, everybody is born as sinful by default?"

The idea, as I see it, is that sentience is a curse. When we ate from the tree of knowledge/took Prometheus' stolen fire, when we stopped being like the other animals, we also discovered a knowledge of evil. We were no longer pure creatures of God (or nature) as we have the knowledge of evil. Cain kills Abel, this is metaphorical for all wars as we all kill our brothers in war.

Thus eating from the tree is a sin, but a rightful sin, one that prevents us from being in paradise (enlightened/state of nature as per Rousseau) but gives us technology, industry, crime and all of the other human things.
kasimax (243 D)
28 Apr 14 UTC
i think actually it would be more interesting to forget about the NT completely and focus on the (i don't remember your exact words) "boring" parts from the old testament, as these are the once that are less accessible to me - and to most non-christians i believe.
Slyguy270 (527 D)
28 Apr 14 UTC
I suggested that we read through the Bible because it's the foundation for a lot of what we talk about around here. I have read parts of the Qur'an before, but not nearly enough to be qualified to explain it. I don't think it's entirely necessary for me to read it honestly, because by proving the Bible correct, I prove the prove the Qur'an wrong. (If I know 1+1=2, I don't need to go read why 1+1=3) Besides, Islam has even less of an argument than Christianity does. However, I can't deny that this stance is slightly hypocritical; so if there's a devout Muslim here willing to explain the Qur'an to me, I'd be willing to read it with them. But since there's not, let's just focus on the Bible for now.

@bihary Glad to hear that you're interested. I can see how you struggled with those issues, and I hope to be able to put the Bible's teachings in better light for you. I could answer some of those questions that you're having now, but I'll just wait till we hit on them together. Explaining Genesis should be a fun one! :P
Slyguy270 (527 D)
28 Apr 14 UTC
@Kaismax
I'd be completely willing to go through those "less accessible" parts with you; but I'm warning you now that they're often a bit repetitive and dry. I even have a hard time getting through them sometimes. I just wanted to see what everyone else thought we should do first before deciding whether or not to cover those parts.
bo_sox48 (5202 DMod(G))
28 Apr 14 UTC
(+4)
"because by proving the Bible correct, I prove the prove the Qur'an wrong."

Nopenopenopenopenopenopenopenope

http://media.giphy.com/media/l2R9Co898IVxu/giphy.gif
Slyguy270 (527 D)
28 Apr 14 UTC
Lol I like the gif, but "nopenopenopenopenopenopenopenope" is not a very convincing argument...

And I said I'd be willing to read the Qur'an, did I not?
semck83 (229 D(B))
28 Apr 14 UTC
SYnapse,

Parts of it. Not the whole thing.
SYnapse (0 DX)
28 Apr 14 UTC
By parts, you mean quotes from anti-islam websites?
Slyguy270 (527 D)
28 Apr 14 UTC
So what I need to know is how many people would be interested in participating? So far this is who I have:

Maybe:

KingCyrus
President Eden
Ogion
Binary
Kasimax

Maybe maybe?:

Krellin
Yellowjacket
Mujus
Hope
Semck83

Please let me know if you want to participate! Thanks!
semck83 (229 D(B))
28 Apr 14 UTC
"By parts, you mean quotes from anti-islam websites?"

No, I own a Quran, and I'll sit down from time to time and read some. If I do see quotes on anti-Islam (or more generally, non-Islam) websites, and it matters, I check them in my Quran or on a Muslim website.

@Slyguy,

I'm thinking it over. Wonderful idea, big time commitment.
Yellowjacket (835 D(B))
28 Apr 14 UTC
Not interested. there's already a bible reading thread. I'll probably have to mute one or the other.
Yellowjacket (835 D(B))
28 Apr 14 UTC
(+1)
Dont listen to them, thucy, I'd read you applied utilitarianism thread :P
Yellowjacket (835 D(B))
28 Apr 14 UTC
In fact, I believe this thread to be the first split within the holy church of webdipstan.

Expect Mujus and fulhamish and the other "old guard" Christians to criticize this thread heavily.
kasimax (243 D)
28 Apr 14 UTC
i don't quite get the amount of "participation" needed when i'm not a christian. if i understood you correctly, you (christians) explain a passage and we (non-christians) are allowed to ask questions. is that right?
Ogion (3882 D)
28 Apr 14 UTC
@kasimax @bihary. I am going to approach it as a chance to listen to folks talk about it and to read this book to see what is in it. I'm certainly not going to be converting
Thucydides (864 D(B))
28 Apr 14 UTC
Having read both the Quran and the Bible I can attest that from a neutral perspective the bible is a far better read, if only because there aren't very many stories in the Quran, and those that are there are re-tellings of bible stories a lot of the time or even repeated elsewhere in the Quran. It's a very dry book. Makes the bible look like a comic book
Maniac (189 D(B))
28 Apr 14 UTC
(+5)
So the search for understanding consists of...
(a) deciding what you believe is right.
(b) re-reading the source upon which your belief is based
(c) satisfying yourself you were right all along
(d) re-inforcing your own belief that people who disagree with you would see the light if they only read your book.

Beginning a journey when you know where it will end may be safe and reasuring, but expecting to find understanding? I think that is unlikely.

I respect people of faith by the way, but if someone had posted that they are a Conservative/Marxist and want to seek enlightenment by reading the Conservative/Marxist manifesto, I'd have the same concern.
Mujus (1495 D(B))
28 Apr 14 UTC
Slyguy, I think a 90-day read will be too grueling for most but certainly an interesting project for those with the mental energy to carry it through. (I did the read-the-Bible-in-a-year thing once and it took me two years, so I'm going to sit this one out. lol)
SYnapse (0 DX)
28 Apr 14 UTC
Thucy that's exactly why I prefer the Quran. It's more of a serious legislative document ,rather than hocus pocus stories.
Thucydides (864 D(B))
28 Apr 14 UTC
Yeah but, as we all know, the "laws" in these religious books are kind of... mostly irrelevant to the modern day. Half of them or more are ignored by modern mainstream religion. The metaphors are far more relevant.
Yellowjacket (835 D(B))
30 Apr 14 UTC
(+1)
I'm more interested in the laws that became metaphors once they got too embarrassing.
Slyguy270 (527 D)
30 Apr 14 UTC
I'd be happy to explain why they're included in the Bible if we cover those sections. I intended to be more active on this thread then I have been, but "free" time has been coming increasingly difficult to find lately.
Slyguy270 (527 D)
03 May 14 UTC
@Maniac (and the 5 or so people who +1'd his post)

This "search for understanding" is not for me, but rather for anyone that wants to understand Christianity better. I worded this thread's title as a question for a reason. I was inviting anyone who was interested to come gain a better understanding of the Christian religion. I'm not seeking to re-confirm what I already believe to myself; instead, I'm trying to share with others what it is that I actually believe. Yes, reviewing the book upon which my faith is based might serve to strengthen my beliefs, but that is not why I'm doing this. I'm doing this to educate those of us who don't understand what Christianity truly is.
krellin (80 DX)
03 May 14 UTC
I saw my name on a list as a maybe maybe. What am I being signed up for? (I don't feel like reading the thread.)
Slyguy270 (527 D)
03 May 14 UTC
Oh nothing important really, you just have to dress up like a panda and do a stand-up comedy routine at our school talent show. It's a part of a fundraiser for our "libtard-awareness" week.

No but seriously how many threads have you read Krellin??? One more isn't gonna kill you... :P
Maniac (189 D(B))
03 May 14 UTC
Slyguy - so what your saying is you already have all the answers and you just want to educate us lesser mortals by getting is to read the book on which your beliefs are based. I get that.

All I'm saying is that if, for example, you truly wanted to understand ( and to help others understand ) anything. Narrowing the reading lists isn't the bet place to start.

Let me give you an example. Let's suppose we wanted to debate who is the best football (soccer) team in the world. Would you start by saying, 'it's Manchester United, you only have to read their offical history (£39.99 at all good booksellers) to know that this is an undisputed fact.' Or would you like to start of without any preconceptions and let the evidence take you to a conclusion? Would you understand more by seeking the right answer, or would you understand more by starting with the right answer and then convincing people you were right?



Slyguy, I made a post in another thread that's pertinent here and I'm curious about your opinion on this take.

The verse being discussed was:
""Jesus replied, “‘You must love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your soul, and all your mind.’This is the first and greatest commandment. A second is equally important: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ The entire law and all the demands of the prophets are based on these two commandments.”"

snip from the conversation:
I've been rereading parts of the Bible in a different light lately. God is the source of inner strength for all Christians; so I've been replacing references to God with that idea (source of inner strength). My take on it is to commit the totality of your person to find and develop that inner strength, and to use it to better others' lives the best way you can. Again, not explicitly the intention of the quote, but it's a similar conclusion, and I do think it's a legitimate challenge to nonbelievers who might otherwise throw out the first half of that quote (or hell, the whole thing, after reading the first half).

===

Obviously this metaphorical understanding of what "lov[ing] the Lord your God" means is a significant divergence from the literal meaning of the verse, informed by my own lack of belief. How much if at all do you think this interpretation is valid in a more strictly Christian context as opposed to this more secularized interpretation?
Slyguy270 (527 D)
04 May 14 UTC
(+1)
@Maniac
I most definitely do not have all the answers; and I certainly don't consider any of you to be "lesser" mortals. If I somehow came across as arrogant, I apologize. That was not my intention.

I'm not sure what you're trying to prove to me. I believe the evidence has already led me to a conclusion: that Christianity/the Bible is true. I searched for the right answer and I believe I found it. Now I'm merely trying to show people how I came to that conclusion.

@PE
I think your secularized interpretation, if used in a Christian context, would be very close to the truth; yet very far from it. In these few verses, Jesus is basically summing up the entirety of Christianity for us. He teaches that Christians should love God, draw strength from him, and want to please him through their lives. Since what pleases God is for us to love each other, we should love one another as ourselves. We should strive to love and help other people, because we love God and that's what God wants us to do. The only difference between your interpretation and a Christian one is that our inner strength comes from God himself via the Holy Spirit. While this difference might seem minor at first, it's a fairly large one. When you replace God with some vague source of inner strength, you greatly limit your ability to be of benefit to others and yourself. A Christian who agreed with your interpretation of this passage might still be able to do good works; but they'd ultimately be missing out on what Jesus' teachings actually implied. They'd be lacking a true understanding of God, a personal relationship with him, and they'd be missing out on having hope for eternity.
NigeeBaby (100 D(G))
04 May 14 UTC
(+1)
Maniac - what answers do you have, just give us your top 3
Maniac (189 D(B))
05 May 14 UTC
Brazil 1982, Arsenal 2004, Man utd late 90s were all good.

However as a Aston villa fan I'm going to say the best football team ever was the Villa side of 1982. You only need to read the history of the club and watch old videos of them playing to acknowledge true greatness. Anybody who disagrees should keep re-reading the offical history and keep watching the 1-0 victory in the European cup final until they come round to my way of thinking. I really hope I have helped yo use the light. You're welcome.



46 replies
Yellowjacket (835 D(B))
03 May 14 UTC
I'm sorry
As above, below
26 replies
Open
thibaud1 (176 D)
04 May 14 UTC
(+1)
Anyone else see this bug?
In a game my fleet in Spain (SC) has the option to support move to GoL from Spain.
8 replies
Open
Al Swearengen (0 DX)
04 May 14 UTC
(+1)
Am I a troll
Your Opinion Wanted

15 replies
Open
Ogion (3882 D)
04 May 14 UTC
Pretty strong Russia position open
http://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=139042
0 replies
Open
Maniac (189 D(B))
04 May 14 UTC
(+1)
Happy Star Wars day to one and all
Hope you have a good one
2 replies
Open
aklimkewicz (228 D)
04 May 14 UTC
One more player needed
Open spot in locked game. Password is thesunneversets. http://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=140996

Original Diplomacy. Full press. Anonymous players. One of our friends dropped the ball. Join in the fun!
0 replies
Open
bo_sox48 (5202 DMod(G))
03 May 14 UTC
TPP Critics Are...
Don't like the official narrative? Conspiracy theorist. Sound about right?

http://infojustice.org/archives/32657
2 replies
Open
Draugnar (0 DX)
02 May 14 UTC
Our smallest bunny died this morning...
Rest comfortably, dear Cotton. Your sister and your mommy and daddy will.miss you little one.
17 replies
Open
SYnapse (0 DX)
02 May 14 UTC
I don't give a fuck about free speech
The security of the state is more important.

Prove me wrong, fuckers.
23 replies
Open
Chaqa (3971 D(B))
02 May 14 UTC
I suck as England
I really fucking suck at England.

I need help.
23 replies
Open
Tolstoy (1962 D)
23 Apr 14 UTC
Murder or Self Defense?
"Just a day after he had shot two teenagers dead in his home, Byron Smith spoke with calm precision and polite cooperation as he explained to a sheriff’s sergeant that fear and a series of thefts drove him to fire the fatal shots..."
http://www.startribune.com/local/256112661.html
72 replies
Open
steephie22 (182 D(S))
02 May 14 UTC
If I can clearly see my veins...
Would that suggest/mean a high blood pressure? If so, does that mean that if I can temporarily see my veins, I temporarily have a high blood pressure?

I might be closing in on something I've been trying to figure out for quite a while here, so I'm just checking seemingly obvious stuff as well to be thorough.
28 replies
Open
Strauss (758 D)
02 May 14 UTC
Deadline in 2 hours
GB AncMed, 10 hours /phase, buy in 100 Credits. 1 more needed to start.
2 replies
Open
krellin (80 DX)
02 May 14 UTC
And another Blow to Free Speech
Hold on to your jobs, all ye who dare to express an opinion in the modern day of the Liberal Authoritarian Thought Police...

http://www.latimes.com/local/la-me-pasadena-leave-20140502,0,6625892.story#axzz30ZCyjxGQ
67 replies
Open
SYnapse (0 DX)
25 Apr 14 UTC
(+1)
No true webDipper would....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman
62 replies
Open
krellin (80 DX)
29 Apr 14 UTC
The Brave Cuban
http://dfw.cbslocal.com/2014/04/28/mark-cuban-donald-sterlings-comments-abhorrent/

47 replies
Open
krellin (80 DX)
29 Apr 14 UTC
(+2)
I Write Like
http://iwl.me/
I provided a sample of text from a story/youth novel I am writing/revising. I write like: James Joyce.

Who are YOU? (Obi...PLEASE do this...I want to see if it replied..."random Verbose Drunk")
18 replies
Open
ssorenn (0 DX)
29 Apr 14 UTC
Creating a guideline for the forum...
As most people on this site probably know, a lot of forum hate spewing has been going on of late. It might be time to find some guidelines.

152 replies
Open
krellin (80 DX)
30 Apr 14 UTC
(+2)
NBA Owner...the Next Banned Man...
http://www.sportsgrid.com/nba/while-were-on-the-subject-the-orlando-magics-owner-is-vehemently-opposed-to-gay-rights/

Yup, krelly was right yesterday, wasn't he. Just wait as teh frothing Libs start lining up their next victims...
116 replies
Open
sw (0 DX)
01 May 14 UTC
Building in a home supply centre belonging to another power
I have a rules query: say I'm playing France, and I want to build in Paris. Paris is unoccupied by any unit, but coloured Purple, because Russia occupied it previously and no one has yet re-occupied it. Can I build in Paris or not?
8 replies
Open
Sevyas (973 D)
27 Apr 14 UTC
Replacement needed
Details inside
2 replies
Open
ILN (100 D)
30 Apr 14 UTC
Animal Farm a Tale of Capitalistic Geed
http://dailycaller.com/2014/04/29/msnbc-host-claims-orwells-anti-communist-novel-animal-farm-is-a-tale-of-capitalist-greed-video/

Apparently Animal farm is a tale of capitalistic greed. I don't understand, how can that idiot go to sleep knowing she lied and misinformed like that?
28 replies
Open
Vampiero (3525 D)
30 Apr 14 UTC
Join!
Continental battle of north America, south America, antartica, oz, vs the rest, that means http://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=140870 joinable as a two team game, (Arg, Bra, Fro, OZ, South, USA, West Canada, Que vs the other big mass of continents)
2 replies
Open
Vampiero (3525 D)
30 Apr 14 UTC
Join II
Sign up for the next editions of the epic series The Day The World Won One, 25 each:
1 reply
Open
TheMinisterOfWar (553 D)
30 Apr 14 UTC
Replacement Germany wanted
Not a great position, but you can pick up Belgium:
http://www.webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=140365

No need for password, jump right in.
0 replies
Open
ssorenn (0 DX)
29 Apr 14 UTC
Looking for a takeover of Germany
gameID=140365. ....Germany needs to leave, fall of 01 Germany is 5sc
5 replies
Open
Socrates Dissatisfied (1727 D)
30 Apr 14 UTC
(+1)
for those who liked 2048...
not sure this has been posted yet: http://www.crazygames.com/game/2584-fibonacci
8 replies
Open
SYnapse (0 DX)
29 Apr 14 UTC
The Favorite Artist Tournament
Let's draw up a list. Each person has 3 nominations, to a maximum of 69 (tee hee) artist.
11 replies
Open
taos (281 D)
27 Apr 14 UTC
(+1)
holocaust remebrance day
Abbas denounces murder of Jews in Holocaust as 'most heinous crime in modern era'
99 replies
Open
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