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A place to discuss topics/games with other webDiplomacy players.
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krellin (80 DX)
08 Dec 13 UTC
(+2)
MSU Spartans - Big Ten Champs!
Michigan State - Big Ten Champs!

Suck on THAT Ohio State Suckeyes! (Though - kudos of Braxton Miller - he deserves the Heisman)
1 reply
Open
MeowdolfKittler (100 D)
07 Dec 13 UTC
Battlefield 4VS COD Ghosts
Which one is better and which one is worse
11 replies
Open
zultar (4180 DMod(P))
06 Dec 13 UTC
(+1)
Please help
I was wondering if you folks can help me do a good deed.
64 replies
Open
bo_sox48 (5202 DMod(G))
05 Dec 13 UTC
(+9)
RIP Nelson Mandela
Yes, it's seemingly old news, we've all known it's coming, but there's no reason we shouldn't offer a little respect to, literally, one of the greatest and most respected figures in human history. Tough to swallow.
79 replies
Open
Putin33 (111 D)
06 Dec 13 UTC
Supreme Court to rule on software patents
Could software patents be abolished?

http://www.scotusblog.com/2013/12/court-to-rule-on-patent-rights/
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abgemacht (1076 D(G))
07 Dec 13 UTC
"Where does how complex something is figure into whether or not it is abstract idea? "

Let me clarify myself. An escrow system could be very complex to actually implement in a real-world environment. It's that implementation they are (or should be) patenting.


In any case, I'm not talking about this specific case as I am your question about should SW be patentable. Not all software is abstract, as I think I've shown.
abgemacht (1076 D(G))
07 Dec 13 UTC
Also, do you have the actual patent in question? I couldn't find it, but if I could, I could address it in more detail.
Putin33 (111 D)
07 Dec 13 UTC
If the implementation is simply a business method why should it be patented?

http://www.google.com/patents/US5970479

http://www.google.com/patents/US6912510

http://www.google.com/patents/US7149720

http://www.google.com/patents/US7725375

What Alice Corp is doing is trying to patent the idea of using escrow agents in financial transactions by using a computer to do it.

The issue seems to be that if you simply give computer functionality to an abstract idea, does it become non-abstract.

And as an aside, New Zealand seems to have made software non-patentable, and not seemed to have suffered as a result. New Zealand's software industry applauded the move, and claimed that patents get in the way of innovation.
Putin33 (111 D)
07 Dec 13 UTC
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=10882569
abgemacht (1076 D(G))
07 Dec 13 UTC
"The issue seems to be that if you simply give computer functionality to an abstract idea, does it become non-abstract. "

I would say so. How can a machine that does something be considered abstract?

How much software innovation is really coming out of New Zealand, though? Is it really indicative of the industry?

I'll take a look at those patents, thanks.
abgemacht (1076 D(G))
07 Dec 13 UTC
Yeah, so I definitely can see why these patents are suspect. It seems to me, they just described how escrow would work on a computer at a high level. That isn't really an implementation.
Putin33 (111 D)
07 Dec 13 UTC
"How can a machine that does something be considered abstract?"

Because it's simply doing calculations of formulas faster than a human mind can. Especially in the case of Alice Corps patents, it's simply calculating financial transactions quickly and more efficiently. There's no new inventive concept going on. You once said that computers were ubiquitous. So this effectively means, that, if you're the first to place some kind of abstract idea in computer format, you now have monopoly control over it. That to me, is absurd and extraordinarily counterproductive from an innovation stand-point.
Putin33 (111 D)
07 Dec 13 UTC
Posted my above response before seeing your comment.
abgemacht (1076 D(G))
07 Dec 13 UTC
"Because it's simply doing calculations of formulas faster than a human mind can."

The same can be said of any physical product. They're all just arrangements of atoms and you can't patent atoms.
abgemacht (1076 D(G))
07 Dec 13 UTC
I mean, saying "A computer could do this task in this general way" certainly shouldn't be patentable. Saying "this is how a computer would implement this task under this conditions" should be. It can often be hard to find the distinction between these two things, though, especially with SW.
Putin33 (111 D)
07 Dec 13 UTC
"They're all just arrangements of atoms and you can't patent atoms."

So are you arguing along with some that a computer effectively becomes a "new machine" every time it runs a different program?
abgemacht (1076 D(G))
07 Dec 13 UTC
No, I'm arguing that software is worth more than the sum of its parts, just like physical products.

Here's another example:

Delaunay Triangulation is a well-known mathematical technique for triangulating points on a plane. This is very useful for mathematical modeling and simulation, as you need to discretize what you're modeling http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delaunay_triangulation.

This patent (http://www.google.com/patents/WO2013090299A1) uses Delaunay Triangulation to have a computer simulate fractured material for fluid calculations. I guess you could say it's "just math", but it's also a implementation of math that can be used by a computer to solve a specific problem.

I think it's reasonable the first isn't patentable but the second is.
abgemacht (1076 D(G))
07 Dec 13 UTC
Perhaps a better analogy would be this:

A novel is just an arrangement of 26 letters, but it isn't the letters that give it value, it's how they are arranged.
Putin33 (111 D)
07 Dec 13 UTC
Does a novel become a new story/concept if it is transferred from paper to e-reader format?
abgemacht (1076 D(G))
07 Dec 13 UTC
"Does a novel become a new story/concept if it is transferred from paper to e-reader format?"

No.
tendmote (100 D(B))
07 Dec 13 UTC
A better analogy would be translating a public-domain work to a new language. Should someone get intellectual property protection for Hamlet in Hawaiian?
Numbat (584 D(S))
07 Dec 13 UTC
(+1)
@Invictus

"Heaven forfend! A company invests millions of dollars developing a complicated piece of software to perform a task and now wants to not let competitors have access to it? How horrible!"

You seem to be confusing patent law with copyright law. Nobody is suggesting that any software should be copyright-free.
redhouse1938 (429 D)
07 Dec 13 UTC
Owww HELLO crucial nuance to the discussion! :D
Invictus (240 D)
07 Dec 13 UTC
No, I think you're the one a little confused here, Numbat. Put overly simply, patents are for inventions and copyright is for creative works. A better mousetrap gets a patent, a song gets copyright.
kestasjk (64 DMod(P))
08 Dec 13 UTC
(+1)
Put another way Numbat the copyright law might protect someone from taking your code and copying it, or copying a derivative work from your code.

With patents the code isn't really the important thing, it's the way the code works. This protects you from writing code based on another person's great idea without ever referencing their code.

e.g. Microsoft might write some incredibly well thought out and effective way of doing clustering in their SQL server database which took ages of R&D. They're worried about Oracle seeing what they're doing and just redoing it without the R&D cost. Copyright law can't protect them (except perhaps some EULA clause on reverse engineering of questionably enforceability, especially since the MS person may well write a paper on their new system because it can't be protected as a trade secret)

Another example are audio/video codecs. Anyone can implement them, you can create new ones without copying anything, but the exactly details of how they work is very intricate and took a lot of development time. (The MPEG-LA is the only group which my company pays patent royalties to, and not for any software but just because we use their algorithms)


This is a controversial patent for Wifi: http://www.google.com/patents/US5487069?printsec=drawing
Lots of commentators said "patenting Wifi, that's absurd there was prior precedent and it's non original etc, and who can parent something so vague", but if you look at the patent itself you'll see it's very specific and detailed.

I saw an interesting lecture on software patents recently and their relation to the open source community (which I unfortunately can't find), where he made the important observation that to be immune to a patent you need to go to the list of claims in the patent, and just show that your device / idea does not meet that claim. Therefore the patent is immediately invalid.
The take-away from that is that patents have to be very specific, and you really have to match the patent exactly. They're only really useful when there's just one specific right way of doing things.


There are exceptions, like anything there are those who abuse the system, but on the whole I don't get the furore about software patents so much.
I think EULAs, which are basically contracts (which have held up in court) which can contain more or less anything and usually give protections far above copyright law, can be much more questionable


IANAL so you may disgree, it is an interesting area though and one which I have to tangle with more often than I like.
Randomizer (722 D)
08 Dec 13 UTC
The problem is that patent examiners allow patents go through and shove the problem over to the courts to resolve whether the patent was valid or should be narrowed. Once they started allowing software patents they started the abuse by letting someone claim that doing something on a computer that existed in another form was a novel concept that could be patented.
kestasjk (64 DMod(P))
08 Dec 13 UTC
>letting someone claim that doing something on a computer that existed in another
>form was a novel concept that could be patented.
Hmm, not sure what you're referring to exactly Randomizer, can you give a specific example?
Randomizer (722 D)
08 Dec 13 UTC
I don't have the reference, but there have been some patent suits over any financial transaction that used to be done by phone or in person being done over the Internet using a computer. I'm not talking about the one-click checkout suit which was a novel short cut, but just being able to make a purchase using the Internet instead of making a phone call to place the order type of patent.
Numbat (584 D(S))
08 Dec 13 UTC
(+1)
@Invictus and @kestasjk

I do understand the substantial difference of software patents vs copyrights and Kestas provides solid examples of potentially reasonable software patents (especially the wifi example).

However, I did quote Invictus saying "... developing a complicated piece of software to perform a task and now wants to not let competitors have access to it...". Just because something is complicated doesn't make it patentable. It can be copyrighted to prevent competitors using it without a license. You don't need a patent to sell a software license to *use* (or "access") the software. Copyright law covers that perfectly well. However, if some other company were to replicate the functionality of that software independently, it would presumably cost about the same amount to do so. The competitor is not benefitting at all from the original company's work unless there was some non-obvious algorithm involved and which became public *and* which they used. But Invictus never mentioned anything like that.

On the flip-side -- unfortunately -- many simple algorithmic software-related ideas do get patents. This completely stifles innovation and is not what patent law was originally intended to do and which can rarely be justified in the software world. The Apple-Samsung lawsuits illustrate that very clearly.

As an unrelated aside, I am proud to have built an extremely successful software company while explicitly shunning any notion of trying to patent anything we ever did -- even though most other people, including my investors, insisted I should do so, purely for the financial gain. The potential for greater financial by applying for a patent doesn't make software patents right, however. Software patents, in general, are too easy to attain and stifle too much innovation, which is contrary to the spirit of the patent system in the first place. Again, this last paragraph is separate from my criticism of Invictus's original comment.

Kestas, thank you for building what I think is an open source site, presumably also patent-free. Cheers!
Dharmaton (2398 D)
08 Dec 13 UTC
We should patent sxx tekneeks :p


55 replies
mendax (321 D)
27 Nov 13 UTC
Webdip F2F UK
There's been some interest in the other F2F topic of setting up a UK meet as well, probably in Bristol. Who's interested?
30 replies
Open
2ndWhiteLine (2611 D(B))
05 Dec 13 UTC
War on Christmas
How have YOU been persecuted this year?
24 replies
Open
Jkeil (0 DX)
06 Dec 13 UTC
Is this a game error?
I'm playing a game with some friends, and the last turn's orders ended up very strange. I don't believe that everyone missed turns, but there are almost no orders showing on the map. And even if everyone had missed their turn, there is no explanation for the army in kiel being dislodged. Please take a look: http://www.webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=128965
6 replies
Open
obiwanobiwan (248 D)
06 Dec 13 UTC
Poor Casting Choices and Underwood Sings--NOT a Few of My Favorite Things!
So...Carrie Underwood doing "The Sound of Music." Kids that were stiffer than cardboard as the Von Trapp family. A black nun in Nazi Austria (I'm all for color-blind casting, but...was there no other role for her, a black nun in Nazi Austria just on the verge of WWII just seems an indication the production team didn't care one bit about the setting) and so on...this was a thing that happened. Thoughts on Carrie Underwood's "The Sound of Music" remake?
9 replies
Open
ccga4 (1831 D(B))
07 Dec 13 UTC
giving players their points back.. a bad idea?
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/36/pb75.jpg/

I have never run into this problem before, but this is very frustrating. Giving players under 100 D their points back, puts an unfair twist in the game. In the game i played with this player, we almost had a draw forced against one larger power, and he decided to attack me.
23 replies
Open
2ndWhiteLine (2611 D(B))
06 Dec 13 UTC
World Cup Draw
Starting now!
21 replies
Open
krellin (80 DX)
06 Dec 13 UTC
(+2)
Obama Hates Eagles
Spread a little DDT and your an evil bastard. But Obama LOVES to kill him some Bald Eagles...

http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2013/12/05/Obama-to-Sign-Rule-Allowing-Death-of-Eagles
31 replies
Open
Andrew Wiggin (157 D)
06 Dec 13 UTC
Nooby question.
Unit A supports Unit B who is supporting unit C.
If Unit B gets support attacked will the support to Unit C be cut?
7 replies
Open
bo_sox48 (5202 DMod(G))
06 Dec 13 UTC
(+1)
Unarmed Man Charged for Stray Gunfire
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/05/nyregion/unarmed-man-is-charged-with-wounding-bystanders-shot-by-police-near-times-square.html?_r=0

I read this article three times over and can't understand how police shooting bystanders is now the fault of the guy they are shooting at....
10 replies
Open
SYnapse (0 DX)
05 Dec 13 UTC
(+1)
Trollo Gospel
Just waking up in the morning, gotta drink beer
I don't know but today seems kinda wierd
11 replies
Open
bo_sox48 (5202 DMod(G))
06 Dec 13 UTC
Birthday Present
If anyone wants to buy me this for my birthday, let me know. I'll love you five-ever. (Get it.. forever... four-ever... five..... yeah, okay...........)

http://auction.mlb.com/cgi-bin/ncommerce3/ProductDisplay?aunbr=19684808&partnerId=as_mlb_20131206_15329114&prmenbr=33072944&prrfnbr=19684808
11 replies
Open
SYnapse (0 DX)
06 Dec 13 UTC
Mandela - Hero. Kony - Terrorist.
Discuss, I'm not in favour of one or the other.
1 reply
Open
SantaClausowitz (360 D)
20 Nov 13 UTC
(+1)
"I work for a living"
Why does your middle-class job make you some kind of badass?
48 replies
Open
orathaic (1009 D(B))
04 Dec 13 UTC
(+1)
Socialism in America?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPKKQnijnsM

combined with money is speech/corporations are people, and unlimited funding of political parties, I suppose this helps demonstrate why 80-90% of the people do not have the voting power to change things...
93 replies
Open
Thegatso (234 D(B))
05 Dec 13 UTC
(+2)
I FINALLY DID IT LMAO
http://puu.sh/5Dkeq.png

LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL AM I GOOD AT DIPLOMACAY NOW?
4 replies
Open
TheNotoriousAMP (100 D)
05 Dec 13 UTC
Rules Question
Okay, so there is an enemy unit in a province. If two of my units are both ordered to move into the province, is that unit dislodged and do my units then bounce off of each other?
5 replies
Open
MeowdolfKittler (100 D)
05 Dec 13 UTC
How do i quit a game
How do i quit a game?
10 replies
Open
diplomate44 (0 DX)
05 Dec 13 UTC
How to kick away games i ve been defeated
Hello, just want to know how to make the game ive been defeated dissapered from my home page, if there is a way of course! Thanks
6 replies
Open
virtuslex (483 D(S))
05 Dec 13 UTC
Site Strategy Differences
Sociological observations from a nonsociologist.
9 replies
Open
President Eden (2750 D)
05 Dec 13 UTC
Humanity's a lot, lot, lot older than you think!
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/05/science/at-400000-years-oldest-human-dna-yet-found-raises-new-mysteries.html?
4x as old per the New York Times. That might not be wholly accurate, but regardless, 400,000 is much older than any fossil to date. Thoughts?
23 replies
Open
Al Swearengen (0 DX)
05 Dec 13 UTC
Four Reasons We Need to Start Making Fun of Terrorists
http://www.cracked.com/blog/4-reasons-we-need-to-start-making-fun-terrorists/
4 replies
Open
Maniac (189 D(B))
03 Dec 13 UTC
Pisa tests
I know you will all get the first part of this question right but you need to guess the second part...(no cheating)
64 replies
Open
ILN (100 D)
05 Dec 13 UTC
explains a lot....
http://www.cracked.com/article_19889_6-insane-things-science-can-predict-about-you-at-infancy_p2.html?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=fanpage&utm_campaign=new+article&wa_ibsrc=fanpage

lol
1 reply
Open
grking (100 D)
05 Dec 13 UTC
Eunuch Campaigns in India
Found this rather interesting, I really didn't know there were that many Eunuchs any more.
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/04/world/asia/a-eunuch-in-india-campaigns-as-a-political-none-of-the-above.html
2 replies
Open
kalbim (100 D)
05 Dec 13 UTC
Afterthoughts of game "Invade Poseidon"
Any thoughts on how the game went?

gameID=129826
1 reply
Open
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