"seemed to be a celebration of how a man defied the rules put in place and lied to get what he wanted."
Looks like somebody supports slavery. All politicians lie, it wasn't celebrating Lincoln for lying, it was showing what he was, a great politician.

No, don't mistake the handle for an opportunity to shut down conversation with the all to common racist claim.

I can't remember the exact quotes but there is an entire monologue by Abe about circumventing the procedures in place to get his result it just annoys me. The good guys are supposed to win by following the rules.

@Gen Lee, welcome to the real world. The notion that the good guys follow the rules and win is a hollywood fantasy.

In the real world there are no rules, and people, good or bad, can only become great by doing whatever it takes to win. That is life. You seem to be upset that Lincoln 'broke the rules', thats politics, thats life. You can't get anyway by following every rule 24/7.

That is actually one of the reasons I liked lincoln, unlike most movie protagonists he wasn't perfect, he broke a lot of rules, but that is life and if he didn't break those rules, slavery would have existed in America for probably another 50 years.

I'm sorry that real life isn't like the movies, but I'm surprised your first experience with this is this late in life (I assume you're at least 15 years old, as I don't think a diplomat of your caliber could be any younger)

*anywhere not anyway

"You can't get anywhere by following every rule 24/7"

I disagree, there is value in having character.

"The good guys are supposed to win by following the rules. "

I take it you don't think the end EVER justifies the means?

Sometimes in life we encounter conflicting principles. When that happens we have to decide which principle is more important. Lincoln chose to uphold the greater of two principles.

I suspect you are just sore at Lincoln because you lost the war, Gen. Lee. You shouldn't let this get you down too much,history remembers you as a fine general.

"I disagree, there is value in having character."
I never said there wasn't, but sometimes the good guy must break the rules in order to do good, that doesn't make the good guy evil. You can't change the world without getting your hands dirty.

This reminds me of a line from Code Geass:
"I have a question for you, Lord Guilford. What do you do when there is an evil you cannot defeat by just means? Do you stain your hands with evil to destroy evil, or do you remain steadfastly just and righteous even if it means surrendering to evil? I

damn it, accidentally pushed enter to early. Continued:

This reminds me of a line from Code Geass:
"I have a question for you, Lord Guilford. What do you do when there is an evil you cannot defeat by just means? Do you stain your hands with evil to destroy evil, or do you remain steadfastly just and righteous even if it means surrendering to evil? In either case, evil remains.

If you have played diplomacy with me, you would know that I highly value Character, Honesty and Honour, I have only committed 3 backstabs in the last 2 years because of how much I value honour.

However I will also admit that this is a contributing factor to why my peak GR is 150, as opposed to 200+.

In anycase, at the end of the day Lincoln broke rules, he wasn't your perfect person. If you don't like that, then tough luck. You can either keep believing your delusions or you can face the facts, you wont get anyway without breaking a rule every once in a while.

"you wont get anywhere without breaking a rule every once in a while"
And even doing so won't ensure you the keys to Heaven.

Gen. Lee, if you don't think you should be allowed to continue a fight after you break a rule, let's protest to get SD kicked out of Lando's tourney since he doesn't have the balls to do it himself.

Seriously though, it was an awesome movie about a great President. Whether or not he was a great man before hardly matters because he held the country together.

Premature immaculation, Fasces349 ? :~)

Gen Lee, I kind of liked Lincoln, but I also very much disliked it, but not for the reasons you mention.

Lincoln presents a classic trope of the civil war that is every bit as cherished by certain white liberals as the Lost Cause idea of an honorable southern war for independence is among certain white southerners. The federal government didn't end slavery; the stress of war weakened the institution sufficiently for slaves to free themselves. The 13th Amendment is important, but it's not as important as the film indicates, because everyone knew that the alternative would be for the government to forcibly re-enslave millions of people. But rich white people love to tell themselves that they went down and saved those poor old black people from the dastardly southerners.

I dislike it for other reasons, like the idea that compromising on principle is the way to get ahead. But as a film it's great - Daniel Day Lewis is awesome in everything.

"I suspect you are just sore at Lincoln because you lost the war, Gen. Lee. You shouldn't let this get you down too much,history remembers you as a fine general"

:) Upon reading the first sentence I thought is this clown serious? Then I got to the second and had a good chuckle. Well played.

@ckroberts Daniel Day Lewis was excellent. Also I'm confused...you disliked it for the same reason I did. Well, minus the boredom.

@fasces there are people in history that fought for what was right, in the right way. Martin Luther King Jr comes to mind, you don't have to compromise your character.

@Gen.Lee - King may have been non-violent but he advocated and practiced openly violating laws he and others considered unjust. What the heck do you think non-violent *civil disobedience* means? King broke the law. Numerous times. Hell, he *wanted* mass arrests in Birmingham. You need to read up a little more on Martin Luther King, Jr.

Gen Lee, we agree on a lot of stuff, I was saying this part: "a celebration of how a man defied the rules put in place and lied to get what he wanted. " Don't get me wrong, I am fan of the rule of law, but I didn't see it as particularly bad thing. Maybe it's because I am a libertarian and I think as a general rule everyone should break at least one stupid law a day, but I see a morality beyond the law. It has to be something really worth it to break important laws, but what Lincoln does it worth it.

If you are a Daniel Day Lewis fan, did you like Gangs of New York? I didn't like it at all, but Lewis makes it work as Bill the Butcher.

On top of what Draugnar said about MLK, he also abused his wife and Ghandi (the other popular 'perfect' pacifist) was a racist.

Stop treating history like its fantasy, unlike in movies/books nobody in history was perfect. The heroes in history textbooks are not real, everyone one of them was a human, every one of them did multiple immoral acts, and most of them didn't regret doing so. Not one person in history was perfect, you can either keep on living your lie of holding people higher then they were, or you can accept the facts:
Lincoln lied and broke some laws to get ahead.

MLK encouraged break laws and according to some reports abused his wife. He also lied and broke some laws to get to where he was.

Ghandi was a racist and openly encouraged the apartheid and their oppression. Ghandi also wasn't a complete pacifist, as he advocated for using violence if all else failed, fortunately it didn't go that far.

Accept the facts Gen Lee, and don't hate on the movie because it was the most accurate representation of the character Lincoln that I have seen.