Rape statistics are grossly exaggerated by a society that hates men and insists on stereotyping them as criminals. Many rape accumulations are false and much of what our society labels as rape is not rape (see Kobe Bryant). For example if someone has sex while they are intoxicated then society labels it as rape when it isn't.

@ thucy and yellowjacket

Sorry, I thought what I posted was really easy to follow but you seem to have become confused. 20% of women have experienced some for of sexual crime, ranging from rape to unwanted touching or indecent exposure, between the ages of 16 to 59. Only 5% experience rape over this time. This is reassuring compared to the sort of stats you have routinely produced from sources of quetionable reliability.

If you're not even going to bother taking this seriously enough to read a couple of posts and repsond sensibly I don't see any point in continuing.

Octavious: so you're saying the repeated statistics we've shown saying 1 in 5 of American women has been RAPED are false, then? You consider the CDC of questionable reliability, but believe a similar report from the UK? I mean, they are different countries, so they could both be true. I don't know what the rates in UK are...

In fact, I've not been talking about the UK at all, though I guess it's fair to say you were re: this article. So lets not conflate the two situations.

I don't know, yj, I couldn't get that one to work. I find it strange that the US would be so much worse than the UK though. However, as we don't do that Greek system sillyness in British universities, and it seems to be linked to a lot of these cases, it's entirely possible that things are simply far better on this side of the pond.

Which goes a long way to suggesting that Draug's ideas of cracking down on university fraternity stuff and imposing harsh sentences would solve a lot of the problem.

wait what? Where the hell? That's a massive causation fallacy. You can't just say "rape is lower in UK, and we don't have fraternities in UK, therefore fraternities cause rape." Nobody that I've seen has shown any causal relationship between prevalence of fraternities and rape. So far it's just your's and Draugnar's opinion. I'm not saying it doesn't exist, and it may be a reasonable claim, but I've heard nothing but speculation so far linking the two.

And NONE of that lends credence to your claim that imposing harsher sentences would help a great deal. Stop just repeating that to me unless you intend to address what I've already posited as a counter. It's super annoying and I feel like I'm talking to a broken record.

By the way, none of that means I'm necessarily opposed to imposing stiffer penalties, but I've been more interested in what we feel we could do on the preventative side of things.

@ yj

You can, however, say rape is lower in the UK than the US, that rape in the US is a major issue in university campuses in particular, and that a major obvious difference between US and UK campuses is the fraternity system. To say these points must be linked is wrong. To say these points suggest that fraternities may be part of the problem is perfectly valid. There are bound to be other differences, of course, although only race springs instantly to mind and the last thing we need is for the more excitable forum posters to go down that path.

As far as punishment goes, I mentioned it again after bringing the evidence that sentences were surprisingly light. When you have people convicted for rape who don't even go to prison it sends out an appalling message. I'm not sure how you can simply dismiss me commenting on this new piece of evidence as 'a broken record'

http://omg.yahoo.com/blogs/celeb-news/rihanna-keeps-kids-waiting-over-four-hours-school-223422656.html

SOURCE OF PROBLEMS: Culture. A high school brings is a hip-hop/rap star known for her scantily clad routine, sexuality, music with foul language and inappropriate sexual content for high schoolers, she promotes drugs AND her boyfriend that she still hangs with is known for *beating* her...

Tell me this wasn't a bad roll model for a high school.

"Oh..." come the inevitable replies from the very people decrying our rape culture, "but she's successful in her field...who are you to judge her music..."

Really? The Greek system isn't the problem on college campuses in the US? Now who is being disingenuous? Tell me how many of those reported rapes happened in the lady in questions dorm room? How many happened at frat parties? How many involved a frat boy (or multiple frat boys)? Seriously, either wake the fuck up or stop trying to deflect.

Well, saying that just shows you don't understand correlation vs. causality. Yes, if you're really making the claim that the majority of our rape problems stem from idiot frat boys, then you MUST show causality. Saying it "may be" is not good enough. As it is you're just inventing band-aid fixes so you don't have to do anything yourself.

Well, I was curious to see what people were willing to come up with, and I guess I'm not terribly surprised with the result. Pass the buck on, it's somebody else's problem, it's somebody else's responsibility, nothing I can do. Well, that's the American (and British?) way, I guess.

And you know what? you're right. You don't have to do anything. Hell, a few years ago I'd probably have been saying the same thing. *shrug* Just think about it next time you go to a mall though. Count off every 1 in 5. Put faces to the number. And ask yourself if that figure could possibly be the product of a society that doesn't condone rape.

OK, well I never said that Draugnar, but I am skeptical. I've never heard of such a thing before - but that doesn't mean I'm just dismissing it. Again, all I want to know is if are you just inventing this like that bullshit you were saying about mental illness or if you actually know it based on some real research.

How do you KNOW?

No, yj. I have identified the problem in the UK, and it is idiotically light sentences that send out the message that rape isn't a major crime. The solution is harsher sentences and my part in it will be arguing for harsher sentences and voting for people in favour of said action (who, by jove, tend to be Conservative. Happy days)

I care considerably less about the situation in the US, but it seems worse (using your stats as evidence) and a major part of it seems centred on your university campuses (again from evidence others have posted in the thread). It suggests cracking down on the Greek system would yield results. Obviously it would be wise to investigate this more closely before acting, but everything suggests the investigation will produce a lot of interest.

What will I do about it? Sod all. I don't give a damn how you Yanks do or don't fix the problems you have over there. But if I was a Yank what I should be doing is clear enough. Investigate the frats to confirm our suspicions, and then take action to stop it.

Evidence? What evidence? I've seen precisely fuck-all for evidence. Just saying over and over again that there's evidence doesn't mean there's evidence! But you know what, skip all that. What percentage of American rapes would you *speculate* are perpetrated by a fraternity member? The answer to that question should show you why I think you're just scapegoating the idiot frats.

And then when "cracking down on the greeks" doesn't work, (you can't forbid fraternities, though I would be 100% on board with educational programs in colleges, among other places) you guys would just come up with something else so you wouldn't have to admit our society is a bit fucked in this regard. Deflection ad infinitum.

Lest I sound like I'm being completely contrary for no reason, btw, I'd again re-iterate that I think it's a reasonable assertion that the rape rate is higher in college, and higher yet among fraternities - I'd accept both arguments prima facie.

What I won't accept without a bit of evidence is that a cultural tolerance of rape exists only, or even predominately, within those mediums.

Rapes still happen on campuses without a Greek system and campuses where there are only three or four houses, with could easily mean less than 200 members total. Rapes happen on college campuses because there are shitty people in the world, not because fraternities exist. As for the suggestion that fraternities should be investigated to confirm "suspicions," think carefully if you really want groups of people exercising their freedom of association to be subject to blanket government investigations based only on stereotyping.

The last time the western powers combined and started operating to confirm "suspicions" we had the invasion of Iraq.

Very well, don't do it. It's a big problem in the US and as such I really don't care that much. As I have said what I would do is set up investigations (scientific, not police) to see if there is a problem in likely areas and take action if there is. If you value privacy so much that you find scientific investigations abhorrant feel free not to. Your problems, your choice. I was asked my opinion and I gave it. End of.

I thought you meant criminal. "Scientific investigations" are not much better, though. How do you determine if the data is accurate and how would it be collected? Is information voluntarily given by the chapter, or are cameras set up in the fraternity house and apartments/houses where older brothers live? What if the chapter refuses to cooperate? Why are fraternities singled out and not student organizations like rugby teams and marching bands (hard to believe, but true) where equal levels of debauchery go on during parties and general weeknight outings? Your opinion is just a puff of feel-good nonsense.

@ Invictus

Are the frats not linked to the sports teams? I really have no idea how it works. Clearly similar investigations should be run for all likely areas based on crime statistics.

How should it be collected? How the hell should I know? That's why we have professional researchers. They will know the best way and the reasons for it and they will do it. I will have faith in their conclusions because if I don't I might as well throw all of science away and join a cult.

At the most basic level, it's a group of men living in the house together, which the university rarely owns, although it can regulate the Greek system. Specifics are different at each university. If the data is voluntary, it's unreliable since no one's going to self-report taking advantage of a drunk girl, and if it's compulsory then it's a crazy violation of the brothers' constitutional rights and wouldn't be carried out. I would never deny that rapes happen in the Greek system (there was a big scandal at my university the year before I was a freshman), but your proposal is impractical and unworkable.

You're saying that nowhere in the US exists anyone with the ability to obtain any real data on this? In that case in my estimation you're pretty much screwed. Bad luck.

You're just saying data like it's a magical object that fixes everything. How is it to be collected? What are the criteria? If it's constant video monitoring and interviewing everyone post-hookup then why stop at frats, why not do the same in dorms? Indeed, why not the general population? And since you stated that the investigation is to "confirm our suspicions" I can't imagine your proposal being anything like fair-minded.

@ Invictus

Most scientific investigations are intended to confirm or disprove something we suspect. We built the HHC to look for the Higgs Boson, we analyze crime scenes to look for evidence of said crime, we put satelites into space and point them at glaciers to look for evidence of global warming. It is very rare we do anything that doesn't have a specific purpose.

What are the criteria? That would depend on the advice given by the research team.

Is data a magic object that fixes everything? No, but it's a vital starting point without which we're just pissing in the wind like we've been doing in most of the rape-culture threads.

Why not the general population? Because it'd be bloody expensive and very hard to do well. There is plenty to suggest that there are hot spots to focus on. If nothing is found in these hotspots maybe a more general investigation would be required.

LHC*

All I've been asking is what can we do here and now to fix the problem, and I've only heard two answers really, the first is to make stiffer sentences, which I think is a good idea, but somewhat limited in scope and effectiveness for reducing the actual rape rate. The second is this so-far unfounded assertion that the main problem stems from the fraternity system.

Well, Octavious, I have no problem with collecting more information, but it sounds to me like you and Draug have been acting like this is the primary source of rape crime, and saying "fixing" it is going to make everything better. That's a hell of a conclusion to jump to without having collected any data first, especially since you've thus far chosen to not even examine other preventative options that may extend well beyond fraternities.

I don't have to study every square inch ofbmy house's wall to know that plugging the 1" diameter hole in the basement wall will improve the energy efficiency and no one has suggested that ending the Greek system is the only thing to be done. Do a targetted survey on campuses and a statistical analysis of rapes involving college students as well as college rape cases versus the general populace if you like but I seriously doubt you find that the majority of college rapes *don't* involve the Greek system and that the majority of rapes are women under 25 with most of them being high school or college age. I would also look into athletics in general especially involving high school rapes.

@Draug: Really, so you think that 50+% of college rapes are perpetrated by fraternity members? Another bold and unsubstantiated claim by Draugnar? Is there a reason you feel this is true, or are you just following your gut? Perhaps you'd like to read the bottom of p. 18 if you're interested in something a bit more substantial.

https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/nij/182369.pdf

As far as nobody suggesting ending the greek system is the only thing that can be done, did I miss something? Did somebody paint with broader strokes and I just missed it? Not to mention if you were to consider seriously "ending" the greek system, you'll quickly realize in America it can't be done - which just gives old white guys like you yet another excuse to say, "Oh, well, guess there isn't anything we can do here at all then!"

We already know that most rapes occur when the woman is under 25, so no argument there. I'm not sure what that does to support anything else you've said. I'm not sure that the majority of the 18-25 y.o. cases even happen to women in college. They might, might not.

I would agree that we can/should perhaps look into fraternities and athletic programs with a relatively higher weight than other areas. I have no idea how much, because none of you seem to know what relative contribution they put on the problem. So why are you so resistant to "looking into" EVERYTHING in general? Why are you insisting that there are only these subgroups that contain the vast majority of the problem, while the rest of society gets a pass? And why are you convinced of this even though you clearly have no figures on the demographics of how rape breaks down?

@YJ - I won't deny it is purely my gut. So I read the bottom of page 18. It says nothing about surveying about the details of *where* the sexual assault occurred. So it says nothing one way or the other about the Greek system or athletics (which at the collegiate level cross over each other quite a bit).

And ending the Greek system could very well be done if colleges (and college Presidents) were to take their responsibility to educating their students more seriously. There are colleges out there with little to no Greek system in place. They do just fine. In case you doubt me, Yale's Greek system (one of the top schools in the nation) is all but non existent. There are students who specifically seek out schools with little to no Greek system as well because Greek life doesn't interest them. So it *could* be done with Presidents who had the balls to stand up and say "We are *educators*!"