redhouse -- ditto.

You find fault with my latest and very accurate post?

redhouse - MAN UP and answer my posts point for point instead of being, as is usual, a mindless douche.

Just ignore me, Jamie.

Best to you.

What detail do you need? Life is unfair because if God imposed fairness he would have to take away freedom. The faithful can be devided into either complete idiots who delude themselves into thinking life is fair and that people who get shat upon or made lifetime customers of ConvaTec somehow deserve it, or those who know life is unfair but believe it will somehow be put right afterwards.

We unbelievers know that life is unfair, don't much like it, and try to make the bits of it we control as fair as possible to compensate (thus proving that only atheists are truly morale ;) ). Except for those of us who don't give a damn, that is. They're just twats.

Hey Jamie,

Thanks. Some of the other answers do seem worthwhile, to me anyway, but I guess that is up to you to decide.

Anyway, I just got done typing 15 pages of physics in 6 hours through the night, so I am going to hit the hay pretty hard, and I'll respond to your follow-up tomorrow.

@Jamie - Really? I answered it in plenty of detail early on. Just because youdon't like the answer given does not mean it isn't detailed. I don't like tomatos but that doesn't make them any less of a vegetable. The exist and they provide sustenance. But I still hate them. My answer exists (answers actually as you asked two questions, but still).

You asked: "Why did god design me so badly? Why did he design a world in which humans get unpleasant diseases through no fault of their own?"

I answered: "The real truth is we become inflicted to test us (the parables of Job and of Jonah provide this evidence) [and these tests] are given to provide us with the opportunity to choose between selfish moaning and trusting in Him. "

I then went on to offer condolences and clarify what I meant by "selfish moaning" and not selfish is the "me, me, me" sense but as in the moaning is of the flesh, not fo the Spirit. I also went on to offer my condolences. They were very much heartfelt. After spending Sunday before thru Thanksgiving day watching my wife suffer in the hospital with an intenstinal blockage and concerned it might not clear and they might have to operate, I can have a small feel for how painful it must have been and how frustrating it all is, if only from watching it by the bed side. And I truly do wish you peace as I know there is no "recovery" from a chronic condition that required the removal of you large intestine. So I wish you peace and offer up my prayers for you to my "imaginary" God that you might find healing within your soul and gain from this experience, so that you might turn it into a challenge to be overcome and not give up.

I'm sorry, Draugnar - I think I must have missed or somehow scrolled past your post, many apologies. Your take on a benevolent god "testing" his creations is interesting, especially as it appears to differ from semck's view that humans are forced to suffer due to original sin, and that my illness is an example of such suffering.

Although this thread was not intended to provoke a debate about whether or not god exists, in practice his whole episode has reinforced my certainty that god (or certainly the benevolent, loving, omnipotent, omniscient god described in many Christian accounts) cannot possibly exist.

Your kind words are very much appreciated. I hope your wife is feeling much better now.

Jamie -- Why can not God exist? Why has this thread reinforced that idea? God can not exist...or God can not exist as you *wish* He existed? But as He does exists (per the Christian definition) is as an all-powerful jealous, vengeful God that loves His creation, but is generally pissed off at them a great majority of the time because the whole rotten lot is a bunch of fuck-ups – even the best of ‘em, like Paul. That’s why He gives up the demand for all this insane ritual and goes all pragmatic on us and says, “Here…it’s simple…just believe in this guy over here…the one I will make suffer for you..” because He knows that about as simple as He can make it without giving the whole thing away for free.

Man, on the other hand, constantly demands that God be our all-powerful pool boy, able to change the Lotto numbers in our favor (an irony at best, because everyone has the same conflicting prayer). We want God the Butler…and that just isn’t the story…but in truth, human suffering aside, He sets up a pretty decent opportunity for short-term pain, long-term gain with a very simple request: “Believe in me”. Can’t get much easier than that.

Hi Krellin -

Sorry, by "this whole episode", I didn't mean my thoughts on the god issue had been reinforced by *this thread*, I meant that they had been reinforced by my recent experience of chronic illness. However on re-reading it I realise my wording wasn't entirely clear.

I've never believed in god anymore than I have ever believed in ghosts, the tooth fairy, or the flying spaghetti monster. Why should I? Religious belief can only make sense as an opt-in, not an opt-out, and I've never seen any reason to opt in.

During my recent serious illness and spell in hospital, I recieved a lot of love and support from my friends, which really helped and kept me going. I felt no support from any mysterious almighty force. That's why I'll continue to put my trust, and my faith, in tangible, real things like my friends and family that I know from experience can be relied upon.

@ jamie my first post was just pre-empting every other answer you would get. If you do not blindly put your faith in 'him' you cannot understand any answer a theist would offer. I would go so far as to say there is in fact no answer. If you would like a greater understanding of religion I would suggest you look to north korea, who have recently made some interesting archaeological discoveries.

@ I forget now, two pages back
Actually recent evidence suggests that most "primitive" peoples had lifespans comparable to our own, as well as much better general health. The study "longevity Among Hunter-Gatherers: A Cross cultural Examination" covers this topic with a look at the human life span in several different cultures. The study puts forward the hypothesis that there is a prototypical pre-industrial mortality profile in humans. Or in other words, there is a normal human lifespan that can be seen across many cultures and levels of pre-industrial development. That "normal" lifespan is about 70 years.

Jamie - here's why I believe in God. I grew up in "the Church", being told all the stories, etc, and it was good. It went We believed in faith in the same breath as children believed in Santa and the Easter Bunny, etc...and when we put the Easter Bunny aside as fable, we held on to God, because loss of belief was...well, "frowned upon", but it also, you know, endangered your eternal soul...so we didn't question it.

As I entered high school I started to meet non-believers that questions my faith, but I held fast, without really delving deep in to why. And then college...well, it pretty much shattered my faith and belief in God for a couple years. It did *not* make any sense...was kind of a ridiculous story....and then the more I studied in college, the more my faith returned.

Philosphy...Prime mover...Big Bang...I don't care how you think the universe came in to existence or what you call the process...but whether God "snapped" His fingers or uttered a Word, He brought it in to existence...that's the religious take. Science says, "Ahhh...that's a lot of guff...look at this data...see? There was something there...and infinitesimal bit of nothing that blew up on day for no reason we have figured out yet...and we don't know what was before it or why that stuff was holding together before it decided to blow up.." At best, this is a wash, a no win for either side...except really it points to God more than science...whether he be the Butler God with the White Beard watching over us, or some unrelatable, impersonal "thing", science does not dismiss him, and to me, Logic says something has to be there.

Beyond that, though I was an Electrical Engineer, I also studied anatomy and advanced physiology...getting down into exactly how the body works...chemical messengers, receptors, biological feedback control systems -- this incredibly complex body with all these extremely advanced control processes. Engineers had to solve the problem of how to send multiple messages down a single line...the body sends thousands, millions of messages *right now*...using chemicals and electricity and...and someone wants to tell me that somehow, in a universe where all we see in systems in decay, the wonder of the human body has defied everything else...that some minute spec of something one day *spontaneously* erupted with all the vital process of life (i.e. ability to consume food, ability to convert it to energy, the ability yo reproduce) and then this spec somehow kept *improving* while everything else decays...and it becomes man somewhere down the road.

Jamie...you are a broken man. Something went wrong, and you didn't get better...you broke and they ripped a part of you out. When genes fall out of place, babies are born defective, not better...yet somehow we are supposed to believe that from the prime mover...we accidently get this incredibly complex machine of man...


But then as an electrical engineer, I look at the perfection of creation...atomic structures that somehow...magically...stay together. "Spooky action at a distance" in the quantum world...so much perfect design, so unable to be comprehended...all just an accident?

I threw out my disbelief because it was easier to believe in God.

The book of Romans says that the glory of God is all around us to see, if you just look...and that is why all man is responsible to believe in God. Because it's obvious.

That was my journey from Easter Bunny faith, to no faith...and back to a real faith in a "creator".

Thought I'd share that.

@ krellin

"Stuff is really complicated, whether than try to comprehend I'll attribute it to magic."

Sicarius...perhaps your head was firmly lodged up your ass....I said I was in college studying electrical engineering, in-depth anatomoy and psyiology, as well as philosophy for that matter, touching on quantum physics in magazines because it si fascinating.

No...I don't attribute it to magic...I attribute it to brilliant design that **defies** every observation of the decaying universe.

You represent the typical arrogant respoinse..."You have to be stupid to believe religion" ON the contrary, you *truly* have to be stupid to believe in the spontaneous creation of life and the **magical** path of evolution *unless* it was by a guided hand.

If you ever have a wife that gets pregnant, let me have a mad scientist randomly tweak a gene in the fetus and you'll know what I'm talking about...

Thanks for demonstrating *your* ignorance Sic....as expected, you attack when you do not understand.

But then as an electrical engineer, I look at the perfection of creation...atomic structures that somehow...magically...stay together. "Spooky action at a distance" in the quantum world...so much perfect design, so unable to be comprehended...all just an accident?

I threw out my disbelief because it was easier to believe in God.

I was rather impressed by krellin's post, to be honest. I can't say I'd come to the same conclusions, but belief based on a foundation of reasoned thought is rather refreshing.

I'm with Octavious. Krellin, thank you for taking the time to lay out your position, your beliefs, with such clarity. Like Oct, I don't draw the same conclusions, but your post does a good job of explaining why you came to those conclusions yourself.

"spooky action at a distance"....that's a phrase the EINSTEIN coined when he observed quantum entanglement, asshole. Keep displaying your ignorance, fool.

Yes...I threw out my disbelief because there were too many things *observed* in the universe that *defy* observation...such as the idea of life constantly *improving* when everything left alone decays. When we observe unexplainable things in quantum physics...it is actually reasonable as some point to say, "YOu know what...it's too incredible...there is something *greater* behind it all." It does NOT mean that we stop pursuing knowledge...but to humble ourselves and suggest (GASP!) that man is not the ultimate mind...to accept that maybe a God created it does not diminish science in the least.

Your problem, Sic...is your arrogance...your self-inflating notion that *you* must be the ultimate arbitar of what is right, what is wrong, what is truth and fiction...that is can only be so if you can measure it and test it. Some of us exercise humility in our search and...while *still* searching, understand that the framework was designed, and we give credit to the Designer.

You're the one who said magic. I was just condensing your post, of which "I threw out my disbelief because it was easier to believe in God" seemed to be the key sentence.

"If you ever have a wife that gets pregnant, let me have a mad scientist randomly tweak a gene in the fetus and you'll know what I'm talking about.."

I'm not going to start a debate about evolution in this thread (that could be a different thread), but I can't help responding to this because it is my main field of study (molecular biology). The vast majority of mutations are neither helpful nor harmful. Furthermore a mutation is more likely to fall in a sequence that regulates gene expression than in a gene and is more likely to subtly affect biological function than cause some obvious phenotype. There are real examples of random mutations in humans and other organisms that are helpful. So please don't say 'mutations are bad' as an argument against evolution regardless of whether or not evolution is correct.

Yes, I said "magic"...in the unwritten context of "as if by magic"...a common phrase when confronted with a problem you can't explain.

You simply do not want to understand, and seek to attack.

The person whom I was addressing, on the other hand, accepted my explanation as a belief that is actually formed based upon rational thought, not magic and fairy tales.

Einstein all but said certain elements were magic, too..."spooky action at a distance". So...do you discredit him, as well? Did Einstein berlieve ghosts were causing the unexplainable effects of quantum entanglement? (Which...by the way...are still unexplained.) Teleportation of photons, for example...is demonstrated, expiremented on...and *totally* unexplainable. It is mathematically calculated and predicted...and totally unexplainable. No one, to my knowledge...of the greatest minds in physics...has yet to come up with *any* sort of rational explanation, conjecture, theory, etc to explain it.

I've got one. It's simple and elegant. It's rather amusing. It's God...and he's keeping the secret to Himself. See...my God has a sense of humor as well...man will *never* ever be able to explain the mechanism of quantum entanglement...or the *instantaneous* transmission of data over a distance...which is really so much *more* than teleportation. It doesn't require energy at the instant of the event, beyond the energy to observe the change...it's defies all understanding. It's all but magic. It's God.

At hyper -- re: gene mutations....then have the decency to tell us all that *niether* do random gene mutations stack up so that suddenly a species without eyes can see...have the intellectual integrity to explain to those present that in order for a species *without* a particualr attribure to *gain* an attribute...such as vision...you need not one....but a great multitude of genetic enhancements. PRIOR to those genetic enhancements becoming a functional *brand new* attribute...they will be what? A non-funtioning deformity...

Thank you...

I was simplifying the discussion...you are right...now explain it in detail for us taking the path that I have just eluded to. Tell me how vision evolves...

"man will *never* ever be able to explain the mechanism of quantum entanglement"

Actually he will but only from the afterlife when all is revealed and he will have no way to relay it back to us who have yet to cross over. I sometimes think the real hell will be each person realizing what he was to stubborn to see in front of him and missed out on down here and, those who will truly be in heaven will be those with the open minds down here who sought the truth in every search and never closed themselves off to ideas. The first will be so focused on their loss and the second will be so over joyed with the sudden infux of new ideas and how elegant the solution is...

And better yet...show me the trail of creatures that have almost-vision...since we still have the whole array of life forms ont he planet from single celled creatures to man...surely we must be able to trace the evolution in genetic step-by-step fashion ...

+...heh heh...Infintiy for Draug...For it is in infinity in which we will get the answers...

I'm promised myself I wouldn't get involved in this thread, but I have a question for Krellin that I'm very curious about.

But, first, Jamiet, let me say you have my deepest condolences. I'm glad to see you've stuck with at least one of your passions (Diplomacy). I hope your illness hasn't prevented you from doing too much of what you enjoy.

Krellin,

Having spent a significant time studying QM myself, I am interested in what you say. While I fully agree we don't have all the answers, I'm interested in why that in particular led you to a Christian God. Surely there were other factors, no?

Krellin - there are animals with "almost vision". And varying degrees of vision. So it is step by step. Many animals don't see color or see a limited color spectrum but have significantly better night vision and there are some insects who can't "see" per see but sense shadow and movement, sort of a pre vision, through eye like sensors.

Mind, I'm of the mind set that a divine superior power guided evolution and continues to do so. Otherwise we'd have a lot more fossil evidence of failed random chances: creatures whose change attempting to adapt failed miserably.

I'll call those lacking fossilized animals "Epic. Fucking. Fails."

I think you misunderstand evolution quite fundamentally. An eye would not just appear fully formed from one generation to the next, and a less than fully developed eye would be useful. Think of a few light sensitive cells, not an eye by a long shot but the ability to sense light even in minor ways could be beneficial enough to be passed on.

"Mind, I'm of the mind set that a divine superior power guided evolution and continues to do so. Otherwise we'd have a lot more fossil evidence of failed random chances: creatures whose change attempting to adapt failed miserably. "

Isnt that the only fossils we have?