"Yes, prejudice will never go away, so we should never fight it? That's a terrible argument."

That's not my argument. We should fight it but we should not coddle kids and make them think the world owes it to them to be nice. There will be crushing insults later in life where mommy and the school won't be there to protect and punish. Better the person learns to deal with it at a young age and can handle it better in life than suddenly deal with the assholery of the world in their mid-twenties unprepared.

"They should also wear armbands to identify themselves. This will prevent the normal students from befriending them by accident. "

and it will help them find each other so they can have more gay sex!! It is the perfect solution!

@Invictus - I must say I disagree with you on the idea that words are just words. That's why we have hate crime legislation. If we made the bullies deal with a criminal record for their hate crimes, maybe we could save a few lives and improve the learning in our schools. You say "get a tougher skin" but I say they shouldn't have to. Worrying about the bullies distracts some great kids from their studies because they are so emotionally distraught they can't focus on the task at hand. Eliminating the bullying is a must for improving our schools.

"No, not the law. I wouldn't support the bill. I wouldn't want the homosexuality debates to be in the classroom primarily because it takes up time which would be better spent with real learning.

Right, which is why you just went on about 40 soliloquies about banning discussions of gays in class because it might result in bigots being offended. You're outraged about bigots being "pilloried", but you lecture victims of abuse to become thicker skinned. You're so full of it.

" I also don't like the idea of a teacher imposing their personal opinions on the class. If the issue was creationism we'd agree on this, but as usual this is an issue you happen to be especially interested in right now so different standards apply."

Because there can't possibly be class discussions without teachers 'imposing their views'. And children are so fragile and thin skinned they can't handle it if they don't agree with a teacher. And discussing the issues facing gays in this country is not *real* learning. We're supposed to all live in an alternative universe where issues of sexuality don't exist and aren't on the frontburner of politics (largely because the anti-gay hordes put it there).

"I would think my views are pretty reasonable, but it's not terribly surprising that a Stalinist graduate student would disagree."

When in doubt, engage in pathetic redbaiting. Especially when your first tactic of engaging in false equivalence while calling me a hypocrite didn't work.

"hildren should be prepared to live in the world as it is, not be sheltered from unpleasantness until it crashes in on them after graduation. "

Except conservatives. They absolutely need to be sheltered from the possibility that someone might not like what they say.

"Better the person learns to deal with it at a young age and can handle it better in life than suddenly deal with the assholery of the world in their mid-twenties unprepared. "

seriously? you don't think that constant bullying in school, a situation where the student has to face everyday, doesn't have a massive impact which may hinder 'normal' healthy development in many social skills?

Though i agree we shouldn't coddle kids. They should run, shout, play, fall down, bitch, and push each other in playgrounds.

That doesn't mean a teacher can't lead by example when the issue inevitably arises.

"Eliminating the bullying is a must for improving our schools." - teaching people to be tolerant of each other is a must for our society.

"We should fight it but we should not coddle kids and make them think the world owes it to them to be nice." I agree, you know what else we shouldn't do? Allow them to grow up thinking that holding deep seated prejudices is OK. Let me make one thing very, very, very clear. There are orders of magnitude more gay kids growing up understanding that the world can be a cruel place, than there are straight kids who grow up to understand that prejudice is not acceptable. So stop pretending the opposite.

I;ve said there's a point where the school has to get involved. We don't need to be making serial killers over here. But at the same time you can't protect children from other children being somewhat mean. And if you try that just means it's all the MORE devastating when it happens later in life, which is inevitable.

"We should fight it but we should not coddle kids and make them think the world owes it to them to be nice."

We should coddle the abusers and tell them being mean is a constitutional right that teachers can't discipline you for, while telling the victims to suck it up.

@orathaic - Of course it is. Bullying is being *intolerant*, so why do you act like I'm disagreeing with you?

In the real world, if you behave like Mapleleaf you get fired from your job. The "bullying is a part of life" crowd wants to make bullies believe that there is no accountability for their actions in the real world and that everyone is bullying each other everywhere. This isn't remotely true.

I wish to point out here that I do not condone faggy suicides. We need to CURE the fags of their faggyness at religious camps. Only as a last resort should we Krazy Glue their assholes shut. lol.

I actually laughed at loud at that maple.

@draug, i wasn't disagreeing, i was merely changing the emphasis of your point.

it is not just for the education system, it is for society as a whole. This is not just a problem in schools, but teachers can lead by examples.

However this is the whole problem, that school teachers might lead by example and demand tolerance toward gay pupils.

@maple, i'm getting tired.

Putin +33 - Not much more to say there.

@orathaic - Sorry I misunderstood.

@maple - I'm with orathaic. It's getting tiresome.

@ ora and Fag-Naur - so go to bed then, you whiney pussies.

<shakes head and chuckles> Maple just doesn't get it that I ceased to care what he calls me.

Actually Putin33, it's quite true that people are still assholes and bullies with no repercussions in life. Being an academic on a college campus which probably has a speech code you might be removed from it, but office politics can be quite petty and cruel, though you are completely right that mapleleaf would be fired. It could be as simple as not being invited to happy hour, or as rough as being passed over for a promotion. That's to say nothing about what can just happen on the street on your way home from the bar one night, or how someone might snicker on the bus. Unaccountable cruelty certainly exists.

Once again, is what I'm saying so crazy? Kids should learn to deal with other people being mean to them, and when it crossed into actual abuse then some authority has to get involved in the situation? Is that really a controversial position to you people?

"Not really. That sort of discussion also shouldn't happen. Let's make sure these kids can read rather than having teenagers talk about marriage."

Except the discussion about homosexuality will be illegal, the discussion of the sanctity of marriage between a man and a women only gets an invictus frowny face. One is more consequential than the other, that is why this law, like the evolution law before it, is pure bull shit.

The great thing about this, is that the nation saw this as pure bull shit in 1920

"Once again, is what I'm saying so crazy? Kids should learn to deal with other people being mean to them, and when it crossed into actual abuse then some authority has to get involved in the situation? Is that really a controversial position to you people?"

Excellent! That means that the bible thumpers should be forced to hear that Homosexuality is natural and that their faith is a tyrannical and farcical lie!

Oh.. wait... that will never happen... then perhaps we shouldnt do it to the homosexual kids either...

I'm sorry but not being invited somewhere or being passed over is not equivalent to bullying. Getting beat up, getting spat on, getting your locker graffiti'd, getting your lunch stolen, getting garbage thrown on you, getting continuously taunted and verbally abused is bullying. What you describe has nothing to do with 'speech codes' (and every job I've ever had, academic or not, has had rules against verbally abusing people), and it is not as if people are not uninvited or passed over in the so-called ivory tower of academia. Believe it or not most people who work at a university are "office workers" subject to "office politics".

" Is that really a controversial position to you people?"

If only that was only argument here.

ora just ban the fuckhead and see who wants to bring him back

Hate words *are* abuse, Invictus. I defy you to walk up to a linebacker in the NFL and call him a "N". You'd get your ass beaten to a bloody fucking pulp and rightfully so. I was bullyied with words when I was in 6th grade. Called a nerd and teased because I prefered to read a book in the adjoining classroom than attend a party. It got so bad I finally threw a desk (one of those with the chairs attached) and hit the kid with it. Put him in the hospital. He never bullyied again, but I had to go to group counseling afterwards and face a judge because *I* was the bad kid, not the fucking bully, when intervention would have prevented the whole situation altogether. This kid was a bully and had tortured me and others for months and months but the teachers had the "it's just kids" approach as this was the mid 70s. How about we prevent this from happening to our kids today by stopping the bullying before it starts.

Ora, if you ban him we'd probably all hold a parade in your honor.

@Santa

You want to ban the person who is pro-censorship? : )

no I want to ban Maple, if maple is pro censorship then Id like to see what he wants to censor

I'll back the banning of maple.

Oh, maple, I thought you were talking about Invictus. Yes, that makes more sense. I sympathize with your position, but it is out of my control.