http://www.denverpost.com/nationworld/ci_22594279/homeland-security-aims-buy-1-6-billion-rounds

And it links to this AP story. That one says that the DHS uses 15 million rounds a year for training.

Someone earlier said the the Iraq war used 4.5 million rounds per month That seems low in comparison to what is used in just training in the US, but I can't find a good number.

@ jimgov

If they're anticipating an attack the requires that amount of ammunition, then such an attack warrants a declaration of martial law and military - not paramilitary - force. They're anticipating a rebellion, not a terrorist attack.

@ djakarta97

While DHS does have some assets - namely DEA - deployed to Afghanistan, such assets are dependent on the military for supply, which means conventional full metal jacket ammunition and M4 rifles, not hollowpoint pistol ammunition of limited effectiveness in the type of combat zone that is Afghanistan.

The sheer number of ammunition indicates that DHS is gearing up for something big, something bigger than a horrible large-scale terrorist attack.

The fact that the ammunition is hollowpoint ammunition indicates that the ammunition is not destined for training or overseas use.

jimgov - the 4.5 million rounds per month in Iraq was from my Forbes article link. Considering that there are not necessarily that many ground troops in Iraq, and that they don't necessarily spend a lot of time on the firing range like troops in training back home, that's not an inconceivable number.

Well if it is for a rebellion what can we as citizens do about it?

krellin is fake

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7qKcJF4fOPs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6lHgbbM9pu4

"I have tried to look, but I cannot find any legitimate numbers that this 1.6 billion rounds is accurate or the number of rounds that were used in Iraq."
I trust that forbes, denver post and the huffinton post aren't lying to us and making up a story. They don't provide their sources so its tough to say.

@Gun - Once again, that is just opinion and conjecture. You are taking a "fact", which is not confirmed, and jumping to conclusions.

@Krellin - I missed that. The number given, however, is about 6 million, and that was only at the height. I would have thought it would be much, much more. I was mistaken.

@Fasces - Yes, but in the US world and news report, this was said

DHS told Whispers it regularly fills all of its goods and services requirements at one time because it's cheaper for the agency, and that the 1.6 billion number was misleading because the language of DHS's purchase said it would need "up to" a certain amount.

So we really don't know if this purchase will be for 1.6 billion rounds or if they are just looking for a price for purchasing up to that many.

And yes, that is still a very high number, no matter how you cut it.

"And it links to this AP story. That one says that the DHS uses 15 million rounds a year for training."
I already said this, 1.6 billion divided by 15 million = 107. I said if its going to be used mostly for training purchases, why are you purchases enough ammo to last 107 years?

"4.5 million rounds per month"
Thats 54 million rounds a year, or 3.6 times what the DHS uses for training.

Thats 3313 rounds per enemy combatant killed, which if anything sounds high, not low. (I times 54 million by the number of years in the war, and then divided that by the number of enemy combatant deaths according to wikipedia)

"And yes, that is still a very high number, no matter how you cut it."
Thats my point, how can you justify that number?

you guys are being skeptical enough

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6lHgbbM9pu4

It also says that

One solicitation by the agency—for training centers and law enforcement personnel—was for "up to" 750 million rounds of training ammunition over the next five years, DHS spokesman Peter Boogaard told Whispers.

Now, since they are purchasing for every law enforcement agency in the US, we may just not be well versed as to exactly how many rounds are used for training in the US.

<side note> I am going to point out here that jimgov and I just had a pleasant exchange, and yet Thucy - one of YJ's minions - choose to come in and attempt to derail. Why, I ask you? I know I'm often a dick...have always admitted to such a fault - but my detractors are equally guilty, if not more so, when they claim I can't have a decent conversation, and yet even when I am participating in a polite manner, they must attempt to detract. Point made. Sorry for the cross-linked post...

@ jimgov

Anything more than, oh, let's say 100,000 rounds is cause for concern. The fact that it's hollowpoint means that it is meant for not only domestic but also use against soft, ill-equipped targets speaks for itself.

I am not jumping to conclusions, I am using critical thinking skills and going with the explanation that I believe involves the lowest number of assumptions.

Why it should be a concern: Fiscal responsibility. Regardless of conspiracy theories, aren't we like 16 trillion dollars in debt? We have no money, we are defunding the military...but buying 100 years woth of ammunition for "Homeland Security"?

I don't care how cheap the bullet are in bulk, shouldn't we be excercising a little fiscal restraint?

@Gun - 100,000 seems to be a pretty random number that you pulled out of your hat. The truth is, there are over 200,000 people who fall under the DHS and they make purchases for police all over the US. In a vacuum, 360,000 sounds like a lot. In reality, it really isn't. And you cannot say that you are using critical thinking skills to go from a purchase of ammunition to claiming that "They're anticipating a rebellion, not a terrorist attack." Until you show proof of this, everything else is just conjecture.

@Krellin - I agree about fiscal responsibility, but this is probably just a tiny drop in the bucket that is our government's spending. I know that if you watch your pennies, your dollars will watch themselves. But damn, I wish someone would watch our billions and let the trillions take care of themselves.

ummm no. Medicare and Social Security, already the largest portions of the budget, are going to expand rapidly and bankrupt us, those are were our trillions are going.

but on another note does anyone know the actual dollar amount this will cost the tax payers?

If they are buying from Costco, they will get a hell of a deal on that bulk purchase.

@ jimgov

100,000 is indeed an arbitrary number more or less originating from the recesses of my brain (i.e. "my ass" if we're using colloquial slang) Regardless of whether the number is viewed in a vacuum, I find it hard to believe that DHS is currently so short of ammunition that they need to purchase upwards of 100,000 rounds. I'll bet I could walk into any DHS cage in the nation and find it well-stocked with plenty of new ammunition.

"And you cannot say that you are using critical thinking skills to go from a purchase of ammunition to claiming that "They're anticipating a rebellion, not a terrorist attack.""

We've been over this. You don't need that much hollowpoint ammunition for a terrorist attack and you don't need hollowpoint at all for training. There has to be some explanation, or the government is just pissing money as usual. But when the government chooses to piss away money, it usually isn't on ammunition.

Fasces is right about spending. People think the military and the wars are draining us, but it's really entitlements. The military is cheap for its size, strength, and technological capability. It's only a fifth of federal spending.

gunfighter again, your number is way too low.

They use 15 million a year for training, so 100,000 would last them 2 days.

As for hollowpoint, again they can legally use hollowpoint guns on terrorists and other police activities. And 360,000 rounds is only 2 rounds per employee, so its not like they will be using those hollowpoints on every citizen in the country, especially consider they'ed need 900 times that many to use 1 round on every citizen.

In my honest opinion, I think DHS can justify any purchase of ammunition that keeps their stockpile of ammo between 100 and 150 million rounds.

1.6 billion is over the top. If that number was 10 times lower though, I wouldn't have a problem with it.

"Fasces is right about spending. People think the military and the wars are draining us, but it's really entitlements. The military is cheap for its size, strength, and technological capability. It's only a fifth of federal spending."
I think we disagree here as well. We have more tanks then men who know how to operate tanks, we have naval factories that have upwards of 4000 employees that don't make ships because we don't have the budget, but we don't want to fire the employees because politicians don't want to lose votes. Our soldiers used 90,000 bullets for every person they killed in the Iraq war. We have over 100,000 soldiers in Germany to prevent another Hitler from rising.

We could easily cut the defence budget by 15% without, in anyway, altering our ability to perform combat operations. But politicians (with exception to libertarian republicans) don't want a more efficient army because a more efficient army means less jobs.

people dont train with hollow point ammo. it is more expensive and not meant for training. it is meant specifically to cause the most damage to a human, but besides that it is no different from normal ammo. if you think they bought it from training then youre an idiot.

and i cant believe you all believe this bs 360,000 number without doing any research at all. they are lying to you idiots. that mainstream media article you cite says they made a "recent purchase" of 360,000 hollow points. and that comes from an infowars.com article that says THIS MONTH they are ordering 360,000. right after it they mention that it is on top of last month's 240,000. that is 600,000 in two months. i cant believe how you all just believe the lies they tell you.

i also found an article from april of last year citing a contract for 450,000 hollow-point rounds. i cant find an article with the total number of hollow-points though, but it is certainly not 360,000.