Draug -- I totally understand "the job's aren't out thee RIGHT NOW". Do you nonestly think jobs would come back if you jacked up min wages to $20/hr....because they would *never* get back down, and this would result in hyper-inflation, etc.

When my family fell on harder times, we cancelled cable, we stopped going out to eat, we packed our lunch for work, we didn't pay for a smart phone we didn't need, etc.

When I hear about how hard it is...and I *know* what hard times are - I've been unemployed over the past few year for a stint...how many people actually suck it up and change their lives, instead of whining about not being able to live the life they *once* had.

I was making accomodations to move my family back in with my parents, or get rid of half we own to put ourselves in a small apartment..and I started a small business...I did what **I** had to do to try to make things right.


Yes, I took unemployment, because I paid in to the system all my life...and I took the *first* job that came along, even though it was way "beneath" my skills and experience...but it helped get me the next job that put me back where I once was.

What I see out there is a lot of people with their hands out, demanding everyone help them when they won't help themselves, refusing to take work that is offered, maybe starting a carreer in a new directions. etc. And, being in staffing the past 5 years, I've also dealt with a *lot* of people, especially on the lower wage-scale spectrum of employees...that refuse work for one reason or another. Why? Because they get a check from the government, and they have no need to work.

The system is so overburdened that catchign these people would be an excessive burden on employers, and the general consensus is society isn't to crack down, but to loosen up and *give* more, instead of ever asking...demanding...that people start taking care of themselves every now and then!

This problem started *well* before our current economic times (of the past few years), but instead if born of a "I deserve" mentality that has infested our culture and grown for the last couple decades, and is in hyper-growth mode under Obama.

"And actually, three kids is uncommon outside of Catholic circles."

Isn't the national average like 2.4? Haha I'm just being ornery now.

Krellin, forgetting about $20.00 per hour for a second, wouldn't you hypothetically suspect that the majority of whatever we paid the lowest class would be pumped directly back into the economy - and thus back into the hands of the wealthy?

It seems to me that you'd be basically creating economic growth, putting more stuff in the hands of people, and the money still goes back to the wealthy anyways - so nobody loses.

I know that's grossly oversimplified, but is it really wrong?

Okay Draug, you obviously are looking for something to tell me my argument is flawed. That's what you do. I get it. My point is that she can't live happily - or live at all in the end - on the money she was making even with the jobs she had. Fault doesn't matter... you, and everyone, should have some moral urge to help her if you can, and the people that could chose not to do so.

eat the rich

wash them down with some of this:

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_md3pgs58v71qd7dni.gif

No, bo, I have no "moral urge" to help those who got themselves in the situation. She has 4 kids. She married a fucktard bum who left her. Everything she is going through is a result of her bad decisions. If her husband had died, then I would have more compassion. But marrying an asshole is on her. Having four kids with an asshole is completely on her. And not getting child support for the four kids when she dumped the asshole (or he duped her, whichever) is on her.

The extent of my moral urge is a desire to see the wage gap closed up a bit and a reasonable minimum wage. And I became unemployed but was ineligible for unemployment because of the LLC (something about also owning a side business) although I did win a suit (and 6 months salary) against my old employer for wrongful dismissal and I was about to start a job packing boxes at Amazon when a real offer in my field came through (and come through it did!) where I am at now.

lol draugnar you're unfailingly such an asshole about poverty

No, I'm not. I am an asshole about entitlement to people who put themselves in their poverty. To someone who was dealt a bad hand, I have all the compassion in the world. To the widow whose husband was cut down in their prime and she is left with a family to care for, I have tremendous compassion and want to see her and her children cared for. And I give money to those organizations who I feel serve her and her kids. But to the stupid woman who gets knocked up time and again with numerous different baby daddies without getting married or to the stupid one who marries an abusive asshole and has kids knowing all along it can't last, I don't.

I don't blame people for their mistakes but I do expect them to be responsible for them. No one is guaranteed a right to be happy. The phrase as found in the Declaration of Independence does not say we have a right to happiness, but a right to the *pursuit* of happiness.

I've been poor. I was underemployed for over a year in my mid 20s when an employer bounced my last paycheck and left the country with all the corporate assets. I found out (as did the rest of the folks in his employ) that he hadn't been paying the unemployment bill and had listed us as "temporary" workers so we got nothing. We moved to a really cheap apartment in a not so great part of Middletown and I got a job at the nearby mall working in a bookstore. We had two cars, a 71 Plymouth Satellite and 72 Ford LTD. Both pieces of shit but I had a backup one when the other broke down. We fought our way out of that situation. I was constantly sending resumes out and going on interviews until an offer came along for 22K. Sayed there for almost 5 years then got an offer for 34K. 2 years then before I got an offer for 43K. One year there and got an offer for 58K, then 65K then 72K and now I'm up to 85K plus bonuses that put me over 100K this year. And my LLC has only been around for about the last three jobs so I didn't have that to fall back on.

So, yes, I have a problem with rewarding sloth and the majority of the long-term poor qualify under that heading.

Yes, you are.

I wish you could have said all that to her, Draug... I don't care how much combat skill you have, a knife in your gut and a gun in your face isn't beatable. That's what they do to you in a lot of places.

Disarming an attacker with a knife is easy and a gun at close range is even easier. So unless she were a good shot and out of arm's reach, I wouldn't be too worried. MCMAT sticks with you.

I don't think Draug's an unfailing asshole with these things. Sure, I disagree with him frequently, but he acknowledges often that steps do need to be taken in some things - it's people like him who make compromise possible.

Conservatives exist for a reason, so that the change progressives want isn't applied too quickly or irresponsibly. Baby steps - that's how progress is made.

Ah yes, the canard of the idiotic perpetual poor. Because since America is a just society, if you are poor your whole life, it must be down to you. Because America is Disneyland, after all. Suggesting otherwise is treason, no?

Fucking hell, even Marines' families with stable marriages are starving because they don't have enough money.

Did you ever also think that perhaps the marriage failed because of poverty? Or perhaps that the spouse developed problems that couldn't have been predicted like a drug addiction? Or that the woman was coerced into having the children? Any number of those things could be true and often are. Your assumption to the contrary is at best ignorant and at worst cold-hearted.

Haha just when I go and say nice things about Draug he lets a turd fly.

Oops.

Raising the minimum wage by 25% and enforcing it for casual labourers would of course have a profound effect on the economy, cost push inflation.
This opens about a whole new debate because the effects of inflation are many and varied but not always bad, depending on your personal financial circumstances but let me pose this question to get people thinking ...... increase minimum wages that leads to cost push inflation of say 4% across the board, without increasing interest rates think of all the connotations that such a move would bring, some desirable, some not. One very positive effect would be (assuming no mortgage rate change) the drop in mortgage payments as a % of total income. Inflation is the enemy of the person lending the cash, not the borrower because value of the fixed repayments has been eroded by inflation.
There are other effects, some not so positive, but taking everything into account the inflation could be welcomed by many and may be part of the solution to the current problems, the elephant in the room of course being higher tax revenues.

Yeah, go talk to a 16 year old kid growing up in fucking Englewood in Chicago. Its a shitshow.

His family is probably fucked, he's been in poverty his whole life, and the schools are decaying.

If everybody had a fair shot, then I'd be closer to Draug's position. But while American is a more fair society than many in the past (at least said kid from the south side has a CHANCE, even if a tiny one relative to a kid from a nice town in Iowa), its still grossly unfair.

This thread is completely pointless. If the "wealthy entrepreneur" wants to pay more in taxes, he could simply write a check to the IRS if it makes him feel better. They will gladly take his money. Also, the wealthy WILL have higher taxes thanks to our pal in the White House. And Jack Klein, what do you mean by "everyone having a fair shot"? Sounds like Communism to me. And remember, Communism has failed in every country it has been tried in (Russia, N Korea, Vietnam, Cuba, etc).

I'm talking about equality of opportunity, not equality of results.

But hey, don't let me stop you stringing together a set of Fox News talking points.

YJ, by Draug's logic, anyone who gets a divorce deserves to die because of lack of insurance. I'm sure he had a cute crush at one point on someone who ended up in prison twelve times. It's not something everyone doesn't go through...

Where is your constitutional authority for the government giving insurance?

And Jack, it seems you have never watched Fox News. If you did you would know there are plenty of liberals on there, and that the news reporting is quite balanced.

sbyvl36 doesn't exist

you can't prove that you exist

you don't exist

Hahaha. Sbyvl, after reading some of your previous comments, I'm not going to bother arguing with somebody as deluded as you are.

I'll just pity you instead.

@bo - You do a disservice to divorced women everywhere. You make the assumption they can't get a good paying job that includes health benefits. I make the assertion that they can and give them credit for not being "stupid bitches" as you basically assert them to be.

Oh, Draugnar, its easier to just say "Oh, they'll be fine", and pretend you're actually doing them a favor.

Its amazing.. you get the feeling of righteousness, but you don't have to actually DO something. Really, its the best of both worlds.

Jack, if you think I'm deluded, look in the mirror.
Thucydides, I have no response to that nonsense

Oh, c'mon. You can have a better comeback than "I KNOW YOU ARE BUT WHAT AM I?"

Damn, I have to say that I think I prefer krellin for my right wing insanity. At least he's amusing.

I refer back to the Constitution. You refer to ab hominem.