Cherry picking? Either the comments were written or they weren't. Are there ways in which "raisin-headed Ethiopian" can be interpreted in any manner except one that is racially denigrating? I'd like to see it.

The question is, is Islam a coherent belief system? Can Islam be held accountability for anything that is done in its name? Can we observe tendencies and trends?

"I don't see how assisting the government against radical Islamists is a bad thing"

'radical Islamists' seems to be a catch-all term for 'people the US government doesn't like' these days. I worry you will find your newfound mission channeled by people who are highly skilled at maneuvering the efforts of young idealistic interns into bad ends - like ginning up propaganda for another war in [insert random Middle Eastern country here] to serve the interests of the same-old long list of you-know-whos in the Power Elite. The information you serve up about 'radical Islamists' could very well be the last straw needed to push the public opinion polls that last percentile or two to justify a war that will kill tens of thousands of people.

Their blood - a fraction of it, anyways - will be on your hands. Tread carefully. But I hope and pray you will keep yourself out of moral danger by finding some other better use for your talents.

Oh come on Tolstoy. Your views on foreign policy are so baffling.

Yes, "radical Islamist" can mean that type of thing. But what this company is doing is intelligence work. If you think we should not be trying to understand radical Islamists then I am very confused by you. It's not like this company is sitting around drawing up invasion plans.

What we are doing is simply translating relevant threads on extremist forums into English and providing contextual analysis, so that people who need to can get an idea of how the jidahi community thinks. It certainly opened my eyes.

Anyway, back to our charming discussion with Putin about the Mahometans. Or Moslems. Whatever.

So when you read a post on one of these Jihadi forums that recalcitrant Nation X is trying to buy Uranium yellowcake from Niger, you will write it up in a report and hand it off to your superior and never give it a second thought? You may not be drawing up invasion plans, but the information you collect at work will certainly be handed off to the people who are, who will use it for their own ends - whether you like (or even know about) them or not.

"The question is, is Islam a coherent belief system?"

No belief system that isn't 100% centralized can be consistent, since different schools of thought exist. Shia (which itself has 3 major branches, plus a lot of small ones) isn't Sunni, and different Muslims view the same Hadiths differently, especially if they are so-called "weak Hadiths".

The same thing can be said (as I did say) about Christianity (apart from Catholicism and Eastern Orthdoxy, which are hierarchical structures and hold periodic meetings to smooth out any Theological disagreements and hold one dogmatic line), Judaism, Buddhism etc.

Tolstoy, how much do you actually know about this stuff?

These forums never discuss planned terrorist attacks because they know they're being watched. In fact sometimes eager noobs will try to do just that and the other members tell them they're idiots and they should shut up, just like on regular forums.

That aside, if what you suggest we do in the face of sometimes-bad intelligence is stop gathering intelligence completely, then I'd say you need to rethink your stance.

"My, you get real nasty, don't you?"

I get real nasty when people are stupid.

"Really? What on earth was the Muslim conquest of Nubia? I guess Nubia is not sub-Saharan enough for you, even though the kingdom went as far south as Ethiopia. What of the Muslim colonization of Zanzibar and the Swahili coast? As for southeast Asia, we cannot claim for sure how Islam spread in this region. It's all speculation. But there wasn't much missionary activity during this time, and the massive conversion coincides with a period when Muslims were rampaging throughout India and elsewhere. "

I'll give you Nubia, but where I study, we usually include the Sudan in North Africa as far as divisions of Africa goes, which is why it didn't occur to me. The sources of the spread of Islam are few, yes. But we know of several sufis who traveled along the trade routes in southeast Asia to spread Islam, with very few weapons. I hardly see how the Mughal invasion of India could have anything to do with indigenous rulers in Malacca etc. embracing Islam. There was not a lot of military threat... In East Africa, Arabs did establish colonies along the coast, as well as Persians. Islam seems to have spread slowly inlands along the trade routes. I repeat what you wrote:

"But Islam is an Arab supremacist religion and the non-Arabs who are Muslim are Muslim because of conquest and forced conversion. So the fact that non-Arabs are Muslim is irrelevant."

So the Persian sufis traveling to southest Asia to spread Islam were Arab supremacists? You're so focused on the beginning of Islam, which contained Arab supremacy and tons of violence and slavery and other horrible stuff, that you seem to completely miss the point that Islam spread and evolved from an Arab religion to a world religion. And not only by force.

"Seriously, you're making this kind of idiotic remark and you claim I've never read a history book? The Turks were converted by the sword. Great pagan Turkic cities like Samarqand and Khorasan were destroyed by the Arabs. Khan Sulu famously fought the Muslim invaders with great ferocity. After the battle of Talas river the victorious Arabs sent tens of thousands of Turks back to Arab lands to be slaves. So much for peace & commerce."

Err... I wasn't talking about the 8th century here, Putin. The Seljuks who conquered most of the Middle East were a branch of the shamanist Oghuz Turks who lived on the outskirts of Muslim territories. The Seljuks moved into Persian territory and adopted the religion and languages by the 11th century, a full 300 years after the battle of Talas river. Yes, Islam was introduced by jihad in Central Asia, but outside of greater Persia, there was a ton of religious syncretism. Among the Turks on the steppes were Muslims, Nestorian Christians, Tengriists, Buddhists, etc. The Seljuks weren't forced into Islam by Arab conquerors, they started moving into Persian territory and adopted the culture.

"But Islam is an Arab supremacist religion and the non-Arabs who are Muslim are Muslim because of conquest and forced conversion. So the fact that non-Arabs are Muslim is irrelevant."

I guess the Arabs attacked Central Asia so hard that 300 years later Turks still converted to Islam out of fear and shock.

I recommend you focus your energy on Islam today. You have a very simplistic view of historical Islam, and your clear hate of religion is colouring how you view it. Since religion is evil, clearly it must have been forced upon everyone, right? I'm certainly not a fan of organised religion and there is a lot in Islam I dislike, but seriously man.

"But Islam is an Arab supremacist religion and the non-Arabs who are Muslim are Muslim because of conquest and forced conversion. So the fact that non-Arabs are Muslim is irrelevant."

That is just bullshit.

"I'm certainly not a fan of organised religion and there is a lot in Islam I dislike, but seriously man."

Putin doesn't understand this kind of qualification, though, that's your problem Vaft. I've been looking for ways to rephrase this same kind of point every time he pigeon holes me into the exact opposite of his extreme view, to no avail.

Thucydides, I feel the same way exactly.
I'm rather new to the site, but from what I gather, he always plays the same role in these discussions. What is up with that? Is he totally brainwashed by modern Russian mainstream media or something?

"That aside, if what you suggest we do in the face of sometimes-bad intelligence is stop gathering intelligence completely, then I'd say you need to rethink your stance."

It's not a question of 'bad intelligence'. It's a question of bad motives. The Powers That Be decided on a war against Iraq even before 9/11, and intelligence was collected (and manufactured) to justify it by people doing work very similar to what you are now. Those private intelligence analysts-for-hire like the company you're working for now were brought in when the CIA refused to spin their intel reports in directions that would justify another war. Do you ever ask yourself when you are at work why you're even doing what you're doing, when the government has 19 or so intelligence agencies of its own that are supposed to be doing the same thing you are? Like it or not, you are almost certainly being used right now as part of other peoples' agendas which you cannot perceive from your cubicle. And it may not necessarily be another war you're being used to support - the information in reports you provide may determine whether or not Evil Mega Corporation, your employer's customer (directly or indirectly), decides it's worthwhile to support General X in some military coup in return for exclusive mining rights (or whatever) over country Y. Is that really something you want to be a part of?

He's just slavishly devoted to Marx and anti-Americanism.

The best approach is to try to avoid being frustrated by him as a person and instead appreciate that he brings such a disciplined purist view to our forum.

The best way to interact with him without getting frustrated is to just ask questions and learn about his views without trying to convince him of anything, and try to avoid saying anything that will cause him to attack your character, because you will get annoyed and a fruitless discussion will ensue.

@Tolstoy - if that's what you think, then it doesn't matter what I do. The government is going to do its horrendous evils with or without me, apparently.

Also you sound kind of like a conspiracy theorist. Not the whole way there, the stuff you're saying is mostly true, but the way you're framing it is a bit... hare-brained.

Protip: don't do weird shit like capitalize "Powers That Be"

I don't feel that I'm anymore a part of the, to use your affectations, Evil American Empire War Machine, now with this job than I was before when I paid taxes, obeyed the law, and that sort of thing.

Also my company doesn't really deal much with the government it's more for other businesses. Or, sorry, Evil Mega Corporations. fixed.

I repeat my question, how much do you actually know about what I do, my field, and this subject matter?

PS you didn't really answer my implicit question:

Do you think the US should stop its intelligence gathering activities?

"The best approach is to try to avoid being frustrated by him as a person and instead appreciate that he brings such a disciplined purist view to our forum."

This is actually really funny, since he embodies that consistency of dogma that he looks for in religions. Instead of, you know, thinking critically. Shame, too. It might be handy in playing Diplomacy.

I think Putin is pretty good actually, though I don't remember if we've played.

Also, is OP actually Muslim?

"@Tolstoy - if that's what you think, then it doesn't matter what I do. The government is going to do its horrendous evils with or without me, apparently. "

You are quite correct. But if you're not doing it, the guy who you met in the lobby before (or after) your interview who was less qualified, capable, and lost the job to you will be doing it. Better him than you.

"Also you sound kind of like a conspiracy theorist. Not the whole way there, the stuff you're saying is mostly true, but the way you're framing it is a bit... hare-brained. "

We live in a hare-brained world. I've seen and heard things that people here would (and in some cases, have) call me a lunatic if I posted about here. Doesn't make them any less true.

"I don't feel that I'm anymore a part of the, to use your affectations, Evil American Empire War Machine, now with this job than I was before when I paid taxes, obeyed the law, and that sort of thing. "

You have crossed the line from being a passive supporter - someone who was only doing what they had to to avoid being thrown in prison for tax evasion or the like - to someone who is actively assisting. To Godwin the thread, you've gone from being a "Good German" who was just going about their life keeping their mind only on their own life in the munitions factory they're forced to work at to a low-level clerk in the Abwehr, providing mundane and seemingly harmless reports about the situation in the British and French colonies around the world, creating information that - unbeknownst to you - could very likely be used for evil.

"I repeat my question, how much do you actually know about what I do, my field, and this subject matter?"

1) Only what you've told us
2) A little
3) A little

"Do you think the US should stop its intelligence gathering activities?"

It should be seriously cut back, as should military commitments around the world.

"It should be seriously cut back, as should military commitments around the world."

Ah yes.

Glad I asked that because now our discussion becomes much simpler:

I completely disagree with your position and don't see myself ever changing to your side.

Political realism is called realism for a reason.

Well lets not make the mistake that everyone who names their theories as "realism" are the ones who state the truth and reality.

Political realism is the doomsday machine itself. It was invented by the USA (who are the father of the realism and even the "neo-realism"?) to justify its own cruel aims.

Political realism puts the self-interest as the truth and tricks you into believing that you can do anything (including torturing and killing) for your interest, it is always justified. Then you feel comfortable like Colin Powell when you present fake evidence to the UN SC to trick the world into believing the war against Iraq was justified.

Having that said, just as always apparently the topic moved from religion to politics xD I also would like to say that I do not appreciate such people who `personalise` the issues... =o

Oh and to clarify my point above, as seen in hoax presented to UNSC, USA does not need any intelligence gathering activities. They already create the intelligence they need to justify their own actions. :D

Oh please. Realism invented by the US?

I invite you to read the classics. My namesake would be a good starting point.

A nice passage on Thucydides from Nietzsche:

"What do I love about Thucydides, what causes me to honor him more highly than Plato? He has the most comprehensive and most uninhibited joy in everything which is typical about humans and events, and he thinks that a little bit of good rationality is in each type; it is this which he seeks to uncover. He has a greater practical justice than Plato; he does not demean or belittle those people whom he doesn’t like, or who have harmed him in life. On the contrary: he reads into, and attributes to, all things and people something great."

Cool. This passage could be used as the basic instruction for writing on forums. (Not that I would stick to it.)

Aw thanks zmaj

:P

Inviting me to read classics? You were jsut criticising Tolstoy for attacking you PERSONALLY. And now you are doing the same :D How realist of you xD

All right so... lets go back to Politics 101. I know that you already know these stuff but you seem to forget some of the basics.

Thucydides was a HISTORIAN not a political theorist. we cannot say that he is a realist. he never claimed what he says is the "truth" or "reality". It was those American political theorists who claimed that his analysis is political realism. It is same for Machiavelli.

Can you deny these facts Thuycdides? :3

Let me help your arguments a little bit. Even the word "realpolitik" was given by a German but what we understand by the concept of "political realism" is mainly shaped (or rather INVENTED) by Americans. When we talk about political realism. We mainly talk about the political theory shaped by:

Hans Morgentheau in academy and Henry Kissinger and George Kennan (mr. x) in the field.

"You were jsut criticising Tolstoy for attacking you PERSONALLY. And now you are doing the same :D How realist of you xD
"

Welcome to the webdip forum, where the biggest whiners about 'personal attacks' are the biggest purveyors of personal attacks, complete with armchair psycho-analysis and soliloquies of the circle jerk variety.

" I hardly see how the Mughal invasion of India could have anything to do with indigenous rulers in Malacca etc. embracing Islam."

There had been a longstanding rivalry between the several Malay states in and around Malacca prior to the establishment of the Malacca Sultanate. The speculative theory now is that Arabs came to Malacca and promised military aid to to a particular prince -Parameswara - so that he could fight rival nearby Hindu kingdoms - in exchange for his conversion to Islam Arab military aid helped Malacca subjugate rival kingdoms - like the Majapahits. The Arabs also sought to subjugate the Thais, which was the reason for getting involved with the East Indies and their support for Perameswara.

"So the Persian sufis traveling to southest Asia to spread Islam were Arab supremacists? "

There have also been black missionaries for Christianity. Does this mean that the Curse of Ham isn't anti-black? Persia was thoroughly Arabized, especially by the brutal and blatantly Arab supremacist Umayyads. The most fanatical supporters of the Ottoman regime were the Slavic Janissaries and Bosnian Muslims, not the Turks. Conquered people develop Stockholm Syndrome, this is nothing new. Over time people forget that their religion was brought to them by forced conversion and conquest.

The point you seem to be ignoring is that the scriptures and commentaries are full of Arab chauvinism, or that is deemed irrelevant since there are non-Arab Muslims which converted of their own 'volition'.

"That is just bullshit."

Right, I forgot, 'no conquest whatsoever'.

"The Seljuks weren't forced into Islam by Arab conquerors, they started moving into Persian territory and adopted the culture."

I don't know how you can make this claim. The base of power of the Seljuk clan was the area around Khojent, Tajikistan, which was conquered by the Arabs and controlled by them for some 150 years, and then by another Muslim dynasty after that.