Abge - I jist meant there were CS fields that don't require the advamced mathematics of hard engineering or theoretical sciences: fields where logic and algorithmic problem.solving on a daily basis is a matter of structured thinking and not obscure mathematical concepts.

However, I found calculus easiest when I could apply it to real world.situations like the relationship between distance, speed, and acceleration for instance.

@Draug

Again, I understand the point being made, but I don't think it's helpful advice for someone who's trying to decide if they are capable of doing advanced math.

For instance, I know a lot of computer engineers who use almost no math for their job, but they needed to do a fuck ton of math do get their degree.

In Phil and my defense, he initially indicated that he also had issues last year with pre-calc and it was only later he revealed he hadn't really studied. Sometimes accepting your limits is the wisest thing to do. For instance, I was a reasonably talented musician even going to CCM and having a band MOS in the Corps but I knew I loved money andbthe cool stuff it could buy and that my talent developing software would pay a lpt better without me.having to do the whole "starving musician" thing.

And I took almost no additional mathematics beyond high school Calc AB to get my degree. But then that I got my degree in the late 80s.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't you have an associates degree? By CS, I'm pretty sure CM is referring to a BS, which most certainly will require more than HS math.

Actually, I am attending UC on continuing education right now (started this fall) and don't have any mathematics courses required for my BS in software engineering. That may be because of the real world credit they are giving me, but I would think they would expect more if they expect it out of a typical.undergrad.

"This is why you failed and will continue to fail if you don't change your attitude. Math requires time and dedication. You can't stare at a sheet and declare you've learned Math. You need to work out problems so that you can understand the nuances of each one."

This is very true. I had to drop my dual bachelors aspirations because I didn't want to get my feet wet and prepare for Math by actually calculating stuff at home. The theory was manageable but solving the problems quickly and correctly required practice. Especially since we had open book exams, so the problems were tough and with little time for correcting mistakes along the way. Practice hones your pattern recognition, which significantly cuts down on the downtime when you contemplate further steps instead of actually executing them. If you aren't accustomed to things like homework, you need to alter your working ethic, otherwise you will be struggling all the way even though you might be very good in Maths otherwise.

Good for you, Draug. My father just finished his MS in Computer Science; his courses were mostly math. I can understand Software Engineering requiring less math than computer science or other engineering, but if you aren't getting credit for work experience, you're at least going to take Calc III, DiffEq, Discrete Math, and Linear Algebra, if for no other reason than you're part of an Engineering College.

@Draug: "he initially indicated that he also had issues last year with pre-calc" I never said anything like that. I got an A in pre-cal pretty easily.

@abge: "This is why you failed and will continue to fail if you don't change your attitude. Math requires time and dedication. You can't stare at a sheet and declare you've learned Math. You need to work out problems so that you can understand the nuances of each one."
Thtas what I'd always done before calculus lol. But I really do understand what we just had a test on; I got the questions on the homework right 9 times out of 10. I still have no idea why the test was so much harder.
Last semester my test grades were all over the place. I aced some tests and failed others (well, only like 2).

A CS degree at any decent university will require calculus I and II and linear algebra, and probably also discrete mathematics (or some CS-department replacement). It's 50/50 whether it will require differential equations and/or calculus III. This is the voice of experience looking up CS degree plans at many different universities.

abge is also correct about what the academic field of computer science is. Phil and Draug are partially right about what it is as practiced. As both have mentioned, of course, there are actually many CS jobs where the math IS used, though somewhat rarely to the same extent that it is used by (say) electrical engineers.

(Some fields, though, like graphics or audio processing, are going to be very math-intensive, and at a level somewhat beyond calculus. On the other hand, sometimes it's possible just to use the algorithms that others have developed without fully understanding them).

@CM, abge is completely right. Math is not a course that has anything to do with memorization. The one and only way to study it is to work a great number of problems until they are second nature to you. There is no other alternative. By "great number of problems," I mean, say, all the problems in the book (if you have a book). If you get stuck, go to your teacher for help.

@CM

Math requires work. Depending on your natural ability, it may happen at Algebra, or it may happen at Topology. I honestly don't believe there is anyone "bad" at math, there are only people not willing to put in the required work. Honestly, you're better off having a rough time early, so you can learn the proper discipline to learn harder math.

I had a *very* hard time in elementary math, but I worked very hard and when people started dropping like flies in Algebra, then Calc I, then Calc IV, I was very happy I had learned early how to work hard in Math. It sucked when I was a kid, but it really paid off when I was working on Hilbert Spaces for my MS thesis.

@abge: I understand what your saying, and totally agree, but sometimes knowing that you just have to pass the classes and not worry about retention, takes some pressure off. If you can apply yourself enough to pass the classes and hopefully develop some problem solving skills, even if you don't retain the actual math ability.

I've hired many software engineers based on their knowledge of oo and rdbms concepts and agile sdlc without caring what degree they had.

Oh, and one more thing,

"You seem to be hitting your math ceiling with calculus (as I did)..."

I'm sorry, but I think the mythical math ceiling is one of the most damaging things people believe in, educationally. The "math ceiling" just means you have to start working harder to understand, at least for awhile. There's nothing to suggest you can't learn calculus.

Now, whether your goals are worth the effort that will be required to overcome the barrier is something only you can know. But I would say that if they're your goals and have been for awhile, and you're in high school, then the odds are probably yes -- working to achieve your goals is going to be one of the best uses of your time right now, not only because you will achieve them, but because it will be an exceptionally satisfying experience to overcome this hurdle.

You said something about a B. Was that your first quarter grade? And abge is right, mathematics and especially calc and higher maths are about the studying. Memorizing doesn't mean sh*t. You have to understand the various scenarios and be prepared to quickly recognize them and that skill will serve you well in IT problem solving as well. It isn't good enough to be able to find a solution, you have to find it quickly and have it be as efficient and elegant as possible with great attention to detail whether you are writing code to do Gaussian theory analysis or a simple amortization system.

"I'm sorry, but I think the mythical math ceiling is one of the most damaging things people believe in, educationally. The "math ceiling" just means you have to start working harder to understand, at least for awhile. There's nothing to suggest you can't learn calculus."

QFT

I can not +1 this enough.

The problem is, I hate doing the same types of math problems over and over again. I love learning about math, but when it comes to actually doing math, I'm bored out of my mind and would rather do almost anything else. An exception would be if the problem is actually a unique challenge, and not one of 100 repetitive problems in one section of a math book.

"The problem is, I hate doing the same types of math problems over and over again."

Then don't be an engineer. Seriously, it's all about boiling down a problem into one you've already done.

I suppose another question you need to figure out is, do you want to be a engineering or computer science major? And if so, what specifically are you interested in about the subject

To answer your original question though, there are various types of engineers and computer scientists. If you want to specifically be a software engineer or a Computer and Information Scientist then you don't need much math after calc II. Sure Calc and Calc II are difficult, but there are a lot of services in colleges you can use. Most campuses have a math center where you can get help and the people who staff those centers are typically good at teaching people how to study. Which is what you sound like you have an issue with. You can study for days, but if you're not studying correctly you will still fail. No one is incapable of learning, you just have to figure out why you're having trouble and fix it.

CM,

"The problem is, I hate doing the same types of math problems over and over again. I love learning about math, but when it comes to actually doing math, I'm bored out of my mind and would rather do almost anything else. An exception would be if the problem is actually a unique challenge, and not one of 100 repetitive problems in one section of a math book. "

OK, then do the 100 repetetive ones until you can do them correctly as quickly as you can write. Then (and only then) you can stop, IF you make a point to go seek out different/challenging/difficult ones. Like the word problems at the end of the section. If that's not good enough, find a calculus puzzle problem book. Come on here and ask for challenge problems in a particular section, worst-case. I'm sure some of us would be happy to oblige.

But again, wait until you can do the straightforward ones so quickly that you're writing steadily.

@Draug: That was my first semster grade. Second semester just started.

"Then don't be an engineer."

Or you can be a network engineer - one of the people who make the internet work. We make lots of money, do interesting work, often get to travel a lot, and never have to do any math beyond basic arithmetic. We have to be able to do that arithmetic in both binary and decimal and convert between the two in our heads a lot, but it's really not that difficult (especially since we don't need to know how to count beyond 255 :-) ).

"Then don't be an engineer. Seriously, it's all about boiling down a problem into one you've already done. "

I don't really agree with this advice. The process of boiling can be quite challenging and unique, even if the problem you've already done is then easy.

"The problem is, I hate doing the same types of math problems over and over again. I love learning about math, but when it comes to actually doing math, I'm bored out of my mind and would rather do almost anything else. An exception would be if the problem is actually a unique challenge, and not one of 100 repetitive problems in one section of a math book."

I hear you CM, I felt it the same way and that's why I quit. That's also why I can't recommend you a career where you actually deal with these repetitive scenarios. You might get through them to get your degree but your work will sap the life out of you if you don't change your attitude about this. Don't strive to do what you actually don't like to do just because you find certain aspects of it appealing. Try to dissect your attraction to engineering and search for the appealing factors elsewhere. You might still conclude that engineering is what you really want to do the most, but at least you will be even more firm in this conviction than before, which will greatly enhance your motivation to stick through.

@semck

Unless I misunderstood him, he literally said he doesn't like doing math. (Did I misunderstand you, CM?) If that's the case, then I really can't recommend studying engineering. If he is having difficultly, but has the drive to push through it, that would be different. He simply doesn't want to do math.

I interpreted him more to be saying he doesn't like math when it becomes routine and repetetive, but enjoys challenging math. I agree that which of those he was saying is key.

"Calc is hard"

Literally the funniest thing I've ever heard.

Yeah KA? Why don't you PM me, then, and we can discuss some of the math that I find easy and I can laugh at you.

Learning calc is usually experienced as hard by the majority of people. There is nothing wrong with that. The point is to understand it at the end of the day, not find it easy.

"I interpreted him more to be saying he doesn't like math when it becomes routine and repetetive, but enjoys challenging math. I agree that which of those he was saying is key."

Well, if this is the case, then he just needs to decide if he's willing to power through it. Although, I'm not sure how he can call something repetitive and unchallenging if he isn't able to actually do it.