@bo - Believe it or not, I could make a lot more than I do, but I balanced working with people I enjoy doing a job I enjoy and income to meet my personal desires. I don't need to make 150-200K in salary as a DBA (I could, but as good a DBA as I am, I hate doing it). 100K salary+bonus plus more from my side income from my own company are sufficient to buy me the things I want: a reasonably nice older ranch from 1960, a Jeep Liberty and the MB E350 this spring, a mancave, a third bedroom I converted to a walk in closet and dressing room for a nice (but not hyper expensive) wardrobe, a workshop, and a nice plot of land I am landscaping myself.

Sure, I could make the money that would allow me to pay someone to do the yard and have a much newer and bigger house, but I choose not to. However, I also choose to *never* go back to a little 1000 sq ft condo with no yard, 2 bedrooms, no mancave or dressing room/walk in, and just a carport to keep the car in.

Money may not buy happiness, but it sure as fuck makes happiness achievable.

I agree with you there Bo Sox.

The issue(s) with the don-and-pony show we call our economy and political system are systemic, and intentional. There is nothing wrong with inequality, unless that inequality derives from fraud and an unbalanced playing field. The uber rich benefit from the near unlimited money supply, while the masses are left holding the bag. It's been know since the inception of the Fed 100 years ago that the debt would forever increase and that it would never be paid off -- it was put into place to bankrupt our Republic, to take ownership of everything, and everyone. Monetary policy is what creates slave/surf or freemen. As the pendulum swing towards centralization, humans worldwide lose what freedoms they had. Even kings and emperors fall victim to the bankers.

@bo - I never claimed to grasp the working class today. Don't really give a fuck either. I came from a working class family. My dad has no degree. I only have an associate. But to prove my point, my dad achieved a high five figure income before he retired and I am already, at six figures and own an LLC of my own. So "working class" is bullshit. My dad graduated high school, served his time in the navy, and worked his way to the top of the NDT engineering profession without a degree. Being "working class" in your 40s is an excuse for not having the skill or intelligence to work your way out of it.

All you need to understand about the working class is as follows:-
1) Give them money, they will spend it
2) Offer them a 'cheap' mortgage, or any form of credit, they will take it
3) Give them a flag, they will salute it
4) Give them a national anthem, they will sing it
5) Give them an ideology, they will buy into it
6) Give them an army, they will join it
7) Give them a tax rise, they will pay it
8) Give them a problem, they will solve it, give them a mountain they will climb it, give them a deficit they will pay it.
It;s the people who already have enough that insist on more, the greedy people. They don't want to pay any debts off, they just want more for themselves and will go to great lengths to keep what stuff they have and get even more of that stuff, it's not a matter of need, just a matter of greed.
That's why you have a govt. to stop the greedy powerful people and corporations taking everything and making sure they pay their fair share in taxes, they doesn't seem to be working at the moment. Channel money from the powerful and greedy to the working class and your economy will grow again, it's not rocket science.
In the mean time stop making war with the world, the Arab Spring is happening because of the internet, not US foreign policy. Social networks will bring about changes that the political interference and US taxpayer dollars have failed to do since the end of the last war.
Don't make war with the Taliban, give them access to the internet and an X-box, how long before they are playing Fifa 13/Black Ops 2 and dancing gangnam style.
Who knows, I bet some of those Taliban commanders would be pretty wily Diplomacy players, introduce Webdip to the Middle East and help prevent World War III.

@ Draug - your attitude to the working class is so working class. Kick the ladder out from under you so the strivers down below cannot make it to where you are.
That is not the attitude of middle class people, their moral superiority and higher educational standards empowers them to do good things, after all they have a bigger stake in society and therefore have more to lose. They also understand what it is like to have things like a good education, access to health care, better schools, nice holidays, nice cars, the freedoms that come from above average income and living in a western style democracy where human rights are respected and valued.
Draug I hope if you have children they don't share your 'fuck the poor' attitude, it's the mentality of a poor man, living proof that money can't buy you class.

Working class =/= poor. Blue collar unipn guys on the job as long as I have been working can amd do make more than 50k a year.

And my point.is that I have faith the workong class *can* climb the ladder. Will they ever ne rich? Not likely. I'm not rich. Well off? Sure. My dad did it. I did it a little better than him. And they can too.

Now, the rich truly don't understand living.pay check to pay check cause few ofbthem ever had to do it. They don't understand having to choose between going to a movie or buying a new board game or not having the money to do either.

But if you think working class equals welfare class then *you* need to learn what working class is.

Oh and working class often is middle class. Type of work designates working class fRom professional. Income separates middle from upper middle and welfare classes.

The CEO of Costco complained that his taxes weren't high enough last august and last month he gave out massive dividends and gave himself a huge bonus because his taxes will be higher next year. LEFT-WING RICH PEOPLE ARE HYPOCRITES, DEAL WITH IT!

Oh, yeah. That Cosco guy is sure a fuckhead. He has gone out of his way to pay his employees extremely well (average hourly wage for a Costco floor person is ~16 bucks an hour).

Also, to hear Fasces go on about hypocrisy is about as amusing as finding yet another extreme homophobe secretly lusts after the dick. :P

Since when was I homophobic or gay and since when was I saying the costco guy was a fuckhead. I said he was a hypocrite, not that he was evil

Obviously reading comprehension isn't a strong suit.

I was saying you calling somebody out as a hypocrite was AS funny AS homophobes being secretly queer as a three dollar bill.

Its a simile.

I mean, whatever happened to that concept that Henry Ford had... where he paid his employees enough so they could buy his products. Its how you build a prosperous middle class, and raise the wealth of the entire populace.

Thats the fundamental difference between what I call the short-sighted capitalists... they're like the stock market, interested in the short term. They fail to see the forest for the trees, and utterly suck at long term vision. The entire idea that you should forgo immediate profit for a longer game seems to be alien. Its how you get gongshows like Enron.

The CEO of Costco actually has some vision. He's resisted pushes from the stock markets to cut his employee wages to be more in line with Wal Mart and the like. But he's buying something for his money.

He has a fraction of their turnover.

He has a fraction of the floor theft issues

He has a massive amount of employee loyalty and trust.

Also, its nice to know that I can do some shopping and not have to worry about giving my money to somebody who treats their employees like complete shit.

Jack fails harder at reading comprehension. I am not criticizing the CEO of Costco for being evil or being a poor CEO.

I am criticizing him for complaining in August that his taxes weren't high enough and then abusing every loophole imaginable come December of the same year.

That says nothing about what kind of guy he is, in terms of how kind, friendly, intelligent or capable he is as a CEO. I am simply calling him what he is, a hypocrite.

No, you're just trying to slander somebody for following the law.

He thinks the law should be changed. Fine. I happen to agree with him. But you're going to be all butthurt because he's following the laws? Like everybody else? So if I have any direct involvement in something, I'm automatically suspect and a hypocrite?

So I, for example, was in the Navy for a few years. I took their salary, and their money. If I were to now, (or even then) say that we should cut military pay because I was making off like a bandit, would you immediately react by saying "He took the money, he's a hypocrite lololololone"

No. Its absurd, and you're not actually refuting or establishing any discussion.. You're literally flinging shit like a fucking monkey.

Not that I'm shocked. You'd have to work really hard to lower my expectations of you.

The reality is Moodys and Finch downgraded the credit rating of Costco because the CEO borrowed 4 Billion dollars to pay for his bonus and the dividends that weren't suppose to come till November 2013, which he (and the shareholders) received 11 months early so that they wouldn't have to bay taxes on it. This isn't being law abiding, this is downright abuse.

" You're stuck in your labels and cannot see past how brainwashed you are."

hmm... where have I heard that kind of talk before... don't forget to make fun of my college education too :)

Really, you called me out, I agree that I DON'T know you, I ask for clarification, and that's apparently enough for you to dismiss everything I might ever say. Well I'll put the shoe on the other foot, sir, and say you don't know jack about me.

"Being "working class" in your 40s is an excuse for not having the skill or intelligence to work your way out of it."

Exactly. And since 80+% of the working class fall exactly into this category, maybe we ought to pay them a livable wage for doing work that, while not exciting, is very necessary.

@YJ - Sure. I already agreed that we should reduce the wage gap. And I agree that a livable wage needs to be available for all. When wages are so low that a single mom is better off on welfare than trying to pay for daycare while going to work, we have a problem, But we can't fix that problem by paying everyone 50K per year. The solution is to increase minimum wage to a true livable wage, say $20 per hour (40K per year) and to enforce it for *every* sector of employment (including bar/restaurant and field hands). Eliminate piece meal pay and tip assumptions and just say "you work an hour you will make $20 guaranteed".

$20/hour sounds reasonable. That would keep a single mom with three kids in poverty, but hey, it would bring a single mom with one kid out.

An old family friend of mine, no longer with us, worked three jobs on her own as a single mom and had four kids to provide for. Each job was under $10/hour. She didn't graduate from college because her parents couldn't pay for it and she couldn't either. She hit 35 and had all of these health complications and eventually couldn't work but also couldn't get healthcare because she had no insurance. Sure, that's her "fault," but that could have been solved and she might still be alive had the people she trusted her life unto helped her in the ways that you recommend.

Draug, couldn't have said it better myself.

@bo - Where do we put the limit? Come on, it is her fault she had four kids. She could have stopped fucking whatever dude or dudes she was fucking and stopped popping them out. So yes, it is her fucking fault she had four kids. The only exception to it being her fault is if she was a widow, and I've had argued all along that society has an obligation to widows, orphans, and those with physical and/or mental disabilities who are unable to care for themselves.

She was married for eight years and he left... she kept custody but some technicalities kept the man from paying her much of anything. Two were twins (the last one) and it's really not uncommon for a young family to think three kids. They just happened to end up with four and then he walked out.

"The solution is to increase minimum wage to a true livable wage"
And have unemployment sky rocket. While you can force a company to stop paying people $10/hour, you can't force a company to keep them on the payroll.

There is a direct correlation between minimum wage and the unemployment rate.

Whenever we talk about being rich or poor, I feel the need to show this youtube video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OkebmhTQN-4
All the statistics in this video are taking from the heritage foundation

Oh, and $20 an hour is $800 per week at just normal full time hours (40 per). After taxes, that's $600 per week and a 2 bedroom apartment can be had in most of the US (not talking the expensive parts like Beverly Hills or Manhattan) for under $800 per month or a little over a week's take home. Add in a moderate $100 per month electric, $50 per month phone (cell phones are a luxury) over the air TV is free (cable is a luxury), $200 per month for a older but reliable car, $250 per month for gas and insurance... That's $1400 out of $2400 per month, leaving $1000 per month for daycare (which needs to be supplemented or regulated same as any other utility type service: it is an outrage what they charge) and food.

" The solution is to increase minimum wage to a true livable wage, say $20 per hour"

Wrong -- minimum wage is *not* supposed to be the "living" wage that people live their lives on! That is such bullshit. Minimum wage is what you pay a *kid* in high school for their first job! It's what you pay the second income earner who wants to get out of the house.

Come on, how many of you that are on at least your second job have EVER made minimum wage more than once in your life? I made minimum wage for *exactly* 60 days at age 16, and never, ever made minimum wage again.

The idea of the free market is that you make yourself a marketable worker and you make more than minimum wage because you are worth it -- you don't triple minimum wage and kill the employers - and the economy - so that low and no-skilled workers can live, becuase that is not the intention of entry level jobs.

And before anyone says that isn't fair, some people can only get min. wage jobs, I suggest that I tired of paying for the failing of others in society. If you didn't pay attention in school, or truly are so incapable that you can never get a promotion beyond minimum wage...that is *your* problem, not mine. If you jack minimum wage up to $20 and hour, then everybody currently making between $8 and $20 at current rates will effectively take a massive pay cut, because they will NOT get a comparable raise.

Worst idea ever.

Hell, why not just make base pay for everyone $75,000 and install wage and price controls on every aspect of society and be done with it.

If you are goign to control wages...I get to start controlling what all you independant business men can charge (Draug...) so that I know your services are fairly available to *everyone*...

"minimum wage is *not* supposed to be the "living" wage that people live their lives on."

But it happens to be what many have to do. Being unintelligent and unskilled shouldn't be punished to the degree that it is. Should they make as much as krellin? As Draugnar? Maybe not. But nobody who works full time should suffer to the degree that we see. I don't care how we fix that, but it should be fixed.

Again, she choose to have the kids and didn't get the child support. She shoudl get a better attorney and get child support from him. And actually, three kids is uncommon outside of Catholic circles.

@Fasces - The key is to get companies to see their employees as assets, not liabilities. I work for one now who recognizes it is nothing without it's employees and that paying them well and treating them well is what makes the business grow. But when you have the Walmarts and Amazons out there who short change their employees and don't give a hit about turnover or the people, you have the problem. It's not about regulation so much as changing the corporate mentality.

But krellin, the fact is that so many are on minimum wage and can't make it and fall onto welfare as a result. Unless you make minimum wage but a sustainable wage for a single mom with one kid (no house, just a two bedroom apartment and a bus pass if you like), you increase the number of folks on welfare more and more every day.

Welfare reform means wage reform too. And honestly, the folks who pack boxes at Amazon do so quickly, efficiently, and safely, and deserve a hell fo a lot more than the $10-$12 per hour with no benefits they get paid (look up SMX, they do the hiring for Amazon in Hebron, KY). They are treated like disposable goods and not like valuable employees.

"deserve"...such a distasteful word. I "deserve" the services of your business at far less than you charge me, Draug...what do you think about that, your Capitalist Pig! :P It's not fair that you charge more than I can pay you because you have enough clientelle to keep your prices high!

The workers apparently are paying what the free market pays.

When I was young and couldn't afford a place on my own, I got a room mate, or lived at home.

What the hell is wrong with this society that everyone thinks just because you **WANT** something that you somehow deserve to have it given to you? I'm *certain* that you were not raised that way, Draugnar.

There are things in life that you work to obtain...and there are other things beyond your reach which you will *never* obtain. Part of becoming an adult is that people must learn to keep their hopes and dreams in lie with the expectations of how willing they are to put forth the *extra* effort to achieve them.

If someone is packing boxes for Amazon at $10-$12 and not doing *anything* to remove themselves from that situation -- i.e. working harder, finding a roommate so they can pay for further education, etc -- then they are content where they are...