An CD as of Fall 1907? I probably wouldnt draw either. The game was well under way.

I don't think that the issue is whether or not the "game was well underway" or not. I think the issue is whether or not the CD has a significant effect on the balance of power of the game. We all know that a dying power is many times the more dangerous than a thriving power -- they go all kamikaze on the one that attacked them. Nobody can say for sure what Russia would have done had he stayed in. It's not like he was on his last legs. I just don't understand why players think it's appropriate to keep playing when they're given the free path.

I see your point, guess I would have had to been there. But I don't see why ya'll couldnt stop him. heh.

It weren't for lack of trying. But, it was just too fast to get into position because he had no resistance -- which is the point. When you don't have to even worry about retaliation, and you're just blazing through, it's not hard to get into position.

@Stackelbburg - how could you not see what Russia could have done that would have changed the game? He could have taken back Serbia or defended Vienna (but not both) when he CD'd, the Franco-German conflict could have turned out completely different, Turkey could have been kept alive almost indefinitely, perhaps even stage a minor comeback to a 2-3 SC power.

The fact of the matter is that one of the largest nations on the board CD'd. The game should have been immediately drawn

France lost this game. How is there any doubt? France and Germany had the 17 Western centers locked up the same time they allegedly simultaneously had draw votes in 1908. France stabbed Germany and let Italy into the MAO. This happened after the CD should have made it clear that Italy would solo if FG continued fighting. It was over at that point. How is this even a debate?

SD gets deserved flak sometimes. This isn't one of those times. You guys fucked up after the CD. I'd take the win too if I saw FG fighting after the CD when I was clearly the favorite to win.

*correction, the stab into Germany was simultaneous to the CD. I'd be willing to give it a turn or two to see if they could correct - after all, the decisive battles were fought in the Franco-Italian theater which was unaffected by the CD. I still don't see where SD did anything wrong.

Buncha whining. Solid win by SD.

Firstly can I say of the bat I don't think I've ever taken advantage of a major power CDing late on, but I can't blame anyone for doing so either. When someone CDs late on there is just as much chance that someone gets a survive or a draw they wouldn't be 'entitled' to. Remember all the winner is taking away from you is some virtual points, chill out a little guys.

I agree with PE. If F and G made basic competency moves, it wouldn't have been a solo. Period.

Well said PE.

"basic competency moves"? Whatever are you talking about?!? I did everything I could in the north, and in the center, but Italy had NO RESISTANCE. That is the point. It's nearly impossible to make moves to counter a free running opponent when you have to, at least in part, be concerned with the power you've been fighting to that point. As England, I had a disadvantage because I had to convoy armies to the mainland to counter Italy's moves.

IMO, anyone that is giving SD a pass on this one is insane. He knows what he was doing, and the second Russia went into CD he KNEW he was going to win -- despite the fact that he was just over halfway to 18. It's bullshit!

It's not about the points, its about the spirit of the game, and respect for the other players. As I said last night, it's a sign of strength and respect to draw when their is a CD like that, not weakness. SD continually displays a complete and utter lack of either of these two qualities.

You were England too?

Sorry, was thinking about a different game -- probably another in which you fucked everyone with your refusal to do the right thing.

Actually, what I was thinking about was all the convoys that I had to pull off to get my armies over to the east from england, and from denmark.

@MM, as others already stated, the game wasn't lost because of the CD.

On the other hand, I generally agree the game must continue when a CD occurs, otherwise it just creates a bad precedent that a draw (even worse a cancel) can be forced. It's a different quiestion when somebody (can) win because of the CD he should draw to be a sportsman. But in most cases it doesn't cause a win for someone (more often causes a lose to someone who doesn't benefit).

Also, MM, you are the 2nd-3rd most experienced player on this site (in terms of finished games, tide with Czech) you should know CDs happen, sometimes in favour of you sometimes not so much in favour of you. If you have played 100s of games the sum effect of the CDs will be neutral to you. Live with it.

I am "living with it," but that doesn't mean that I am going sit quietly by while a piece of shit hack like SplitDiplomat steals game after game from me and other because he lacks honor. If you don't think the win was due to the CD, you're nuts. It was ONLY due to the CD.

Any player, playing with France and letting Italy (or any souther nation) have MAO is just a bad player. Period.

Let me just point out that in the final position Italy had fleets in Norwegian sea and North Sea.

You're missing the point. I realize that the final blows were struck in the west, but it was in the east where Italy steamrolled and where he could have been slowed down had Russia stayed in the game. It's the cumulative effect that is the issue. When you're gaining free, unopposed SC's, it gives you free reign to take chances elsewhere because you KNOW you're getting gains.

F08, Italy gets into the MAO without even an attempted bounce from France...because France's fleet in the channel is busy trying to hold Belgium from Germany. I don't understand why France and Germany would fight with each other if they both had draws up and recognized the threat from Italy. I agree with PE and others -- SD definitely did not win because he had an easy time taking Budapest and Rumania. He won because France dropped the ball in the med before he even got builds from those centers.

The point is, YOU THINK like this, you think this is the point, but other think differently.

Spring 1908, you should have moved to galicia, to slow down italy, but you were just as greed as he was. With bouncing him you still would have gotten Moscow. Italy was clever, he knew Galicia is moe important. Munich should have moved east, berlin to munich, but you were greed west as well, and attacked France. Bad play on your side either. Sorry ...

You're wrong dude. First of all, I wasn't attacking Belgium, it was France that was still picking at me for a turn or two. Italy wasn't "clever" he was being a douche by not drawing. Any strategy plays that he made were based upon his douche baggery, not his skill. I was trying to keep him from expanding.

@MM, I disagree, but we don't have to agree on strategy. I think Split made the right calls, even more important, you made the wrong ones. And why I think I might be right about this, because Split is Nr.1 in gunboat GR, I'm 4th, uclabb 7th, PE 18th, we all agree it wasn't the CD, and your are ... let's see ... let's roll the page ... roll it ... roll it ... gotcha! 160th. So I think your assesment of the situation [or you yourself] might lack strategic skills.

Sorry, I know I was rude now, but the fact is, both you and France played bad and though the CD has altered the game, it had nothing to do with the result. And blaming someone for playing as he plays, when he is clearly a better player [in gunboats] is just a pathetic try to find your inner piece.

Split is #1 in GR because he cheats, nothing more. I've forgotten more about this game than you'll ever know.

My inner peace has nothing to do with this game, that is for sure.

mm really quit whining. You lost. You lost to a highly rated player. You lost to a highly rated player within the rules of the game. You can try to spin it whatever way you like with talk about "honor" and "doing the right thing" but I just hear it as so much butthurt.

I am not butthurt, and neither am I whining. I am just sick of SD being such a douche bag. If you guys are fine with it, then so be it. Maybe I should examine my draw policy.