i keep forgetting putin hates islam. how 12th century of him

I keep forgetting in order to be a 'progressive' like Thucy you need to look at Islam with rose-colored glasses. Who says stoning rape victims is bad? If it was America, it'd be bad. But if Moslems do it, it's ok.

"Arabs are the most noble people in lineage, the most prominent, and the best in deeds. We were the first to respond to the call of the Prophet. We are Allah’s helpers and the viziers of His Messenger. We fight people until they believe in Allah. He who believes in Allah and His Messenger has protected his life and possessions from us. As for one who disbelieves, we will fight him forever in Allah’s Cause. Killing him is a small matter to us." - Tafsir al Tabari

"If the child is not of the race of Arabs, then he is definitely an owned slave according to the scholars, but the scholars disputed (his status) among themselves if he was from the Arabs - whether he must be enslaved or not because when A'isha (Muhammad's wife) had a maid-slave who was an Arab, Muhammad said to A'isha, `Set this maid free because she is from the children of Ishmael.'"

Ibn Timiyya

"Ham [Africans] begat all those who are black and curly-haired, while Japheth [Turks] begat all those who are full-faced with small eyes, and Shem [Arabs] begat everyone who is handsome of face with beautiful hair. Noah prayed that the hair of Ham’s descendants would not grow beyond their ears, and that whenever his descendants met Shem’s, the latter would enslave them."

Tafsir al Tabari

""Therefore, the Negro nation are, as a rule, submissive to slavery, because [Negroes] have little [that is essentially] human and have attributes that are quite similar to those of dumb animals, as we have stated."

Ibn Khaldun

"“Listen and obey (your chief) even if he is an Ethiopian with a head like a raisin.” - Mohammed, Volume 1, Book 11, Number 662 (Hadith)

http://www.gowister.com/sahihbukhari-9-162.html

Putin33, there was certainly a ton of racism in the early Arab world and there still is way too much of it, just look at Libya. What I took issue with was that instead of criticising the actual current situation, you misquoted a passage you didn't understand as a basis for your argument (whatever it is). I'm not denying racism in the hadiths, it's certainly there, and the Arabs practiced Arab supremacy when they expanded. But it wasn't primarily about skin colour, it was a clan based society with a linguistic and religious culture. The Arabs' slaves were from the Balkans, the Caucasus, the Turkish steppes, Africa, etc. Comparing modern racial theory to the historical idea of cultural supremacy is like comparing Roman rule to modern imperialism.

"Another retreat from the "Islam is racist" claim, or Putin is claiming that all Muslims are Arabs again."

Again? Never made the claim to begin with. But Islam is an Arab supremacist religion and the non-Arabs who are Muslim are Muslim because of conquest and forced conversion. So the fact that non-Arabs are Muslim is irrelevant.

"But Islam is an Arab supremacist religion and the non-Arabs who are Muslim are Muslim because of conquest and forced conversion. So the fact that non-Arabs are Muslim is irrelevant."

The Muslims of sub-Saharan Africa and southeast Asia (some of the most numerous Muslims today) were converted primarily by trade and missionary work, with no military conquest whatsoever. Read a fucking history book.

And do I even need to mention the many Turkish people who converted to Islam after conquering the Arabs? The Ottoman Empire, heard about it? I guess those Turks were forced to convert and that Turkish muslims practice Arab supremacy. Gee.

All religion is political.

Don't mind me, it's just the beer talking.

Hey hang on now Putin.

A lot of Muslims have done some fucked up shit.

But hang on a second here.

"A lot of _____s have done some fucked up shit" is a true statement no matter what goes in the blank except if you put "people who haven't done fucked up shit" in the blank I guess.

So enough with the generalization of whole religions. I definitely don't love Islam. Certainly no more than Christianity. But denigrating the whole thing smacks of racism itself, despite your own claims that Islam is racist.

Quite the contrary I see evidence otherwise all over. In fact, right now, I'm reading through the online communication of *radical Islamic jihadis*, hardly the most lovable group of Muslims.

And yet even they have an admirable sense of equality from Arab to black. There is not even a hint of discrimination. With them, if you're crazy enough to blow yourself up for Allah, then you're a good guy, no matter what you look like. It's the same way with converted Westerners, who are white like me. They love them too, even though they're not Arab.

So I don't really... see what you're trying to say.

You can post writings of Muslims who said racist shit all day, I'll match each one with quotes from Christians saying the same bullshit, and indeed non-adherents doing the same.

It's meaningless.

Thucy, who is paying you to read up on Jihadis? Or are you doing it for fun?

It's for my internship, yes I'm being paid. Lol.

Helios Global Inc. (http://www.heliosglobalinc.com/) is the company.

" you misquoted a passage you didn't understand as a basis for your argument (whatever it is)"

I didn't "misquote" anything. That is how it is widely translated. It wouldn't have been difficult to substitute brighten for whiten, but for whatever reason the legions of Muslim translators decided not to.

"Read a fucking history book."

My, you get real nasty, don't you?

" with no military conquest whatsoever"

Really? What on earth was the Muslim conquest of Nubia? I guess Nubia is not sub-Saharan enough for you, even though the kingdom went as far south as Ethiopia. What of the Muslim colonization of Zanzibar and the Swahili coast? As for southeast Asia, we cannot claim for sure how Islam spread in this region. It's all speculation. But there wasn't much missionary activity during this time, and the massive conversion coincides with a period when Muslims were rampaging throughout India and elsewhere.

"The Ottoman Empire, heard about it? I guess those Turks were forced to convert and that Turkish muslims practice Arab supremacy. Gee."

Seriously, you're making this kind of idiotic remark and you claim I've never read a history book? The Turks were converted by the sword. Great pagan Turkic cities like Samarqand and Khorasan were destroyed by the Arabs. Khan Sulu famously fought the Muslim invaders with great ferocity. After the battle of Talas river the victorious Arabs sent tens of thousands of Turks back to Arab lands to be slaves. So much for peace & commerce.

Yikes. Looks like you've become a servant of The Empire. :-(

That was @Thucy

"There is not even a hint of discrimination."

Like I said, rose-colored glasses.

Look at what the jihadis did to black people in Libya both during and after the war there. Oh but you were cheering that stuff on, nevermind.

"Yikes. Looks like you've become a servant of The Empire. :-("

I wouldn't expect anything less from Thucy.

I do enjoy how criticizing Islam makes me a 'racist' in Thucy's eyes, whereas the 900 threads with me criticizing Christianity gets nary a word of protest, let alone accusations of 'racism'. Evidently only certain religions can be criticized. Islam is off limits. Seems to me that the real bigots are the ones claiming special status for Islam, but who heap nothing but scorn on every other religion.

" The Arabs' slaves were from the Balkans, the Caucasus, the Turkish steppes, Africa, etc."

THis is similar to Confederate apologists claiming that slavery in the Americas wasn't race-based because there were a handful of black and Indian slave owners. The fact is millions of African peoples were taken as slaves by Arab Muslims, for ten centuries.

No I object to that shit too, it's just that Christianity is impossible to defend online.

@ Putin33: Al-Buraq is not a horse! And arabic doesn't have an "O" sound, either spoken or written. So "Moslem" is the most 12th century part of your argument, Putin.

""There is not even a hint of discrimination."

Like I said, rose-colored glasses. "

If you would like to go on some jihadist online forums and locate me some racial discrimination, I'll wait while you prove me wrong, if you can.

Anyway if any of you want to criticize me for taking an internship where I am learning a lot and majorly advancing my career, all I have to say is it's nice to have haters.

Lol I always laugh when someone uses "Moslem" in 2012. It's like calling black people "colored" or some shit. Just a bit... anachronistic, and vaguely prejudiced.

Also, PS, Putin re: Christianity and my lack of defense of it.

I don't know if you've noticed, but I don't really participate in Christianity debates anymore, because they've become pretty boring to me. However if someone tries to give off the impression that Christians are evil or that Christianity has been a bad thing for humanity, I will take issue, because I think that's wrongheaded, just as it is wrongheaded to dismiss Islam as racist or warlike.

"Anyway if any of you want to criticize me for taking an internship where I am learning a lot and majorly advancing my career, all I have to say is it's nice to have haters."

I'm not hating on you, but I do think you should be evaluating the consequences of your employment beyond what it will do for your career. I ask only that you keep in mind who is benefiting from your work, how, and what consequences it has for the billions of people on this earth you do not know.

And also please make sure you're being paid fairly for the work you're performing and not being exploited as a neo-slave while you're at it. I'm sure your employers are selling your knowledge and skill for a hefty sum.

Moslem has been a common spelling well into the 20th century. Get over yourselves. I don't really give a flying fig if I offend Muslims, as they're offended by every damn thing anyway. I'm sure you people are the same ones who defended the rioters who murdered people over cartoons. Time for Muslims/Moslems to grow some thicker skin and time for western liberals to stop kissing up to them.

If Christianity during the medieval era makes our skin crawl from the evils it engaged in, I don't get why Islam, which hasn't bothered to progress beyond medieval fundamentalism in outlook or conduct, is seen any differently. The only explanation is a kind of pathetic orientalism that treats anything remotely 'exotic' as naturally morally superior.

It is completely false to say there is no discrimination against blacks in Arab culture. Then again name a society without discrimination...

The emirates along the gulf have a majority non-Arab population and they don't even give them citizenship rights. If this was anywhere else they'd be called apartheid states. Hell, Israel is called an apartheid state for less.

I'm not taking offence at your spelling of the word, nor would Muslims for that matter, but it does display your stubbornness in sticking to so-called truthes which are more propoganda than fact.

Islam is a very decentralized religion, similar to Christianity (apart from Catholicism) in that respect, saying anything general about the practitioners of the religion as a whole needs very careful wording to avoid sounding ignorant.
Even the Quran in its original form was spelled without diacritics or word-breaks, making it very hard to understand and open to multiple interpertations.
Cherry-picking parts of Hadiths or the Quran does not reflect anything on Islam as a whole, other than inconsistancies which are bound to occur with a religion that is almost 1500 and practiced very differently in all parts of the world, from China and Indonesia to America.