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A place to discuss topics/games with other webDiplomacy players.
Page 797 of 1419
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taos (281 D)
01 Oct 11 UTC
next 64 days?
gameID=68343
how come?
0 replies
Open
santosh (335 D)
01 Oct 11 UTC
Opinions?
http://blogs.rediff.com/mkbhadrakumar/2011/10/01/iraq-joins-the-us-supply-chain/
2 replies
Open
EmperorMaximus (551 D)
30 Sep 11 UTC
see OP for confusion
Are we going to redo this or are we giving up on it?
7 replies
Open
dr rush (0 DX)
30 Sep 11 UTC
Friendships....
I was wondering. People play this with their mates. People develop friendships on this site....

at what point does that become meta gaming? Im sure some people will argue it is straight from the off, whilst others argue friends more likely to stab each other
what do others think?
26 replies
Open
Levelhead (1419 D(G))
28 Sep 11 UTC
Can you choose a country in an anonymous gunboat game?
I have gotten the SAME country in the THREE out of FOUR World DIP Gunboat games. THREE TIMES THE SAME ROTTEN COUNTRY.

Is this just bad luck or did I not see how to set a preference list???
23 replies
Open
obiwanobiwan (248 D)
30 Sep 11 UTC
Calling All Evil Communists. Blind Liberals, Filfthy Elitists, Or Just Anti-TC People!
Friends, Romans, Webdippers, lend me your ears!
Tettleton's Chew has imposed his tyrannical, dogmatic, insidious control over our boards for too long! Murdering--er, muting--liberals en masse! Sending logic to the ghetto! Controlling all viewpoints! Kicking puppies!

VIVE LE REVOLUTION! Take on TC the Terrible! End the Reign of Error!
25 replies
Open
justinnhoo (2343 D)
01 Oct 11 UTC
HELP NEEDED!
http://webdiplomacy.net/forum.php
italy is not drawing and i keep telling him to draw and he sent me a message saying, "is this an order? who do you think you are?"
8 replies
Open
DonXavier (1341 D)
01 Oct 11 UTC
Join BattleAwesomeica
3 players remaining... let's get this out of pregame...
1 reply
Open
martinck1 (4464 D(S))
29 Sep 11 UTC
New Game - Lots of Chat
Calling uclabb, Dejan0707, President Eden, Countess Tillian, rdrivera and The Hanged Man
18 replies
Open
TBroadley (178 D)
28 Sep 11 UTC
Don't Stop Me Now EOGs
Finished game is finished. gameID=66233

Well played by Austria. I (Germany) probably would have helped you after England's stab if you hadn't attacked me. I'll write up an EOG tonight.
25 replies
Open
Chester (0 DX)
30 Sep 11 UTC
I need a admin to unpause this game
6 replies
Open
mariscal (0 DX)
29 Sep 11 UTC
cheating?
pls check this, live game "silent..." gameID=68963. first italy nmr, austria grows a lot about this. france in tyrolia, never took open viena or triest, austria did never care to cover. later someone joined italy, (when my turkish fleet finally reachs italy) only to bring austrians in his homelands. more than strange
24 replies
Open
Octavious (2701 D)
26 Sep 11 UTC
The Value of a Human Life
This site attracts a fairly wide section of humanity (at least politically), so where better to try and hammer out what a human life is actually worth?
232 replies
Open
Thucydides (864 D(B))
27 Sep 11 UTC
Lmao Peace Corps annual budget is less than US spends in 5 hours in Iraq
And less than the budget of the army marching band as well
43 replies
Open
obiwanobiwan (248 D)
29 Sep 11 UTC
The Movie I DREAD More Than Any Other...
..."Anonymous!" I've been getting questions about this hack job every single day, EVERYONE asking me, "Are you seeing it?!?! Is it true?!?!"

Well, folks, I just watched a live debate on the film with the makers...they have Shakespeare MURDER Marlowe and Elizabeth pump out TONS of kiddies! So: anyone HERE seeing it? And what does everyone think about this?
18 replies
Open
dD_ShockTrooper (1199 D)
30 Sep 11 UTC
I have a cunning plan
What if we all try and derail all of TC's threads, so that he mutes every single person on the forum? Then every one of his topics will be him arguing with himself. It's not like a reasonable discussion can be produced in those topics, so we won't miss out on much anyway.
11 replies
Open
Thucydides (864 D(B))
29 Sep 11 UTC
Topic to debate, more or less formally
There are a few rules here so see inside.
20 replies
Open
WardenDresden (239 D(B))
26 Sep 11 UTC
Why conservatives want to end many social programs.
It's not that we hate the poor, downtrodded, abused people. It's one simple thing; we expect adults to act like adults. If that is too much for us to ask, then maybe we need to re-evaluate the direction our society is headed.
93 replies
Open
Victorious (768 D)
26 Sep 11 UTC
would it not be wise to...?
Look trough the paused games and cancel those paused for to long?
3 replies
Open
umbletheheep (1645 D)
30 Sep 11 UTC
Universal Healthcare When I Rule the World!
gameID=68988 - 5 minutes / winner takes all!
2 replies
Open
tricky (148 D)
28 Sep 11 UTC
CDs
Not mentioning any current games, and following the rules, can I please have peoples opinions on going CD in 5 min games following a short start time and giving neighbour countries an immediate advantage. This happens quiote alot and not just in a specific game.
12 replies
Open
SantaClausowitz (360 D)
29 Sep 11 UTC
Al Qaida's request to Darwyn and Sico
http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/envoy/al-qaeda-slams-iran-peddling-9-11-conspiracy-183407514.html


4 replies
Open
Yonni (136 D(S))
26 Sep 11 UTC
FTL neutrinos. A victory for Big Science?
See inside
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krellin (80 DX)
27 Sep 11 UTC
Excuse me? WTF is your problem? How have I not had a "civil conversation" with you? PLEASE explain to me where I have been uncivil, unless the mere act of <GASP!!!> disagreeing with you is now deemed uncivil??? For God's sake...get the fuck over yourself, abge. NOW I am being uncivil...becuase you are insulting me for no fucking apparent reason! Maybne you take offense at my statements such as "....tired of repeating myself..." because you refuse to grasp the concept I am an relaying, and are *insulting me* by suggesting I am not speaking truth as I have *read* it....

In truth, YOU are the uncivil one here, because in your college arrogance, you apparently refuse to believe that <<<<gasp!!!>>> you might not know everything.


I have not been insulting AT ALL until now, Abge. So FUCK OFF. If you are insulted, it is only because you have to admit that you are wrong. You have yet to refute my claims. But, PLEASE, tell me ***exactly** how I have insulted you?

Good god, you fucking arrogant kids need to get a fucking grip and grasp the idea that simple disagreement in a debate does not mean we are disrespecting you. In this particular case, I am not "disrespecting" you, but, apparently, I am informing you of recent advances in science that you are unaware of!!!! So....for just a fucking moment....put aside your fucking pride and **learn**. (Yeah....in that last paragraph, I was insulting you, you fucking arrogant prick!_)
krellin (80 DX)
27 Sep 11 UTC
By the way.,...was ANYONE insulted in my posts other than Abge? Because Abge claims that I have insulted EVERYONE!!! Someone please have the balls enough to state you were not insulted....and thus claim that Abge is a self-centered ass that is full of shit....most likely becuase I have stated scientific claims that he is unaware of. Yes....yes, Abge, us old folks sometimes keep more on top of science that you brainiacs listening to lectures in college. You see...the professors are sometimes just being lazy, and teaching OLD knowledge of established science....so you don't ALWAYS get the latest and greatest in science when you attend class...but sometimes you actually have to stay on top of and research topics ON YOUR OWN.....

Apparently, you do not do this....not do your profs....

...but *I* do....and you apparently have missed the latest and greatest scientific info on quantum teleportation and information tranference....i.e. FTL data transmission...."spooky action at a distance" if you prefer....
abgemacht (1076 D(G))
27 Sep 11 UTC
I'm writing my real response regarding FTL comm. now, but in the mean time:

1) "How have I not had a "civil conversation" "
-"Wait...wait...Abge...other guy....neither of you is an engineering major...and thus you are commenting on things you have no comprehension of. "
Accusing me of not knowing what I'm talking about
-"have professors that are not current on their knowledge. I'll suggest Case 2. is the case..."
Insulting my colleagues for no reason

2)"You apparently refuse to believe that <<<<gasp!!!>>> you might not know everything."
I'm not sure how you can defend a statement like this after I just said:
"Now, I will freely admit that I may not be up-to-date on the latest findings, but the last I read, there was no way to extract useful information out of entangled particles. If you have a white paper that says otherwise, I'd be very interested in reading it."

But, in any case, that was really just a side remark. I don't actually get insulted by people on the internet. My real response is on it's way.
abgemacht (1076 D(G))
27 Sep 11 UTC
@Krellin

You are wrong.

Quantum Entanglement does not allow for meaningful FTL communication.

I agree that QE is a theoretically and experimentally proven fact. However, you can not use it to communicate meaningful information FTL. If I have 2 particles entangled such that one is spin-up when the other is spin down and we each take one to opposite ends of the universe, I can measure mine and you'll instantly "see" if mine was spin-up or spin-down, but so what? Nothing's really been learned. If I could control if mine would be measured as spin-up or spin-down, *that* would be useful, but no one can do that.

As to your three sources:

1/3) This refers to quantum teleportation, which uses QE, but is not the same thing. QT transports qubits, *not* classical information. No one, including this paper, claims that this can be used for FTL comm.

From the paper:

"During teleportation Alice will destroy the quantum state at hand while Bob receives the quantum state, with neither Alice nor Bob obtaining information about the state |ψ>"

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but neither observer is gaining information.

2) Again, this paper focuses on quantum communication, which does not translate to classical information. In this paper, they seem to be focusing on entangling the particles and make no reference to FTL communication.


Quantum Computing is a fascinating field and will allow us to do unimaginable things. But, neither your source nor anywhere else I've looked have claimed it will allow FTL communication.
Invictus (240 D)
27 Sep 11 UTC
Then how does Picard have those video chats with Starfleet, mister smart guy?
abgemacht (1076 D(G))
27 Sep 11 UTC
@Invictus

He uses the Force, just like Dumbledore taught him.

@Krellin

Here are some papers that clearly state QE does not imply FTL Comm.

http://www.tp.physique.usherbrooke.ca/experiences_fichiers/Bell/references/Aspect_Nature.pdf

http://www.springerlink.com/content/ll783033431824r5/

http://arxiv.org/PS_cache/arxiv/pdf/1011/1011.6245v1.pdf
Invictus (240 D)
27 Sep 11 UTC
Where's obiwanobiwan when you need him?
Yonni (136 D(S))
27 Sep 11 UTC
http://xkcd.com/955/
Geofram (130 D(B))
27 Sep 11 UTC
Stealing my link!
But that comic works regardless of topic.
I find these conversations extremely unsatisfying and mostly unsubstantial.
abgemacht (1076 D(G))
27 Sep 11 UTC
Which conversations? We seem to be having many in this thread.
Yonni (136 D(S))
27 Sep 11 UTC
Geofram, I was just poking fun at you for putting it because Draug already did in this thread and I'm sure (at least) someone else already did it in other thread about the neutrinos
Geofram (130 D(B))
27 Sep 11 UTC
Any of the conversations which fall under the heading that comic addresses.
"New Science kills Old Science, ha!" vs. "No."
abgemacht (1076 D(G))
27 Sep 11 UTC
What say you, Krellin?
orathaic (1009 D(B))
27 Sep 11 UTC
@Krellin, you said: "Wait...wait...Abge...other guy....neither of you is an engineering major...and thus you are commenting on things you have no comprehension of."

see, not being an engineering major didn't have much affect on my ability to comprehend quantum mechanics when i majored in physics...

what you fail to understand is clear from your paragraph 'Through quantum methods, you observe, affect, etc Photon A....and then instananeously you observe that Photon B....which has NOT BEEN ACTED UPON AT ALL suddenly demonstrates the same spin at Photon A. i.e. INSTANTANEOUSLY you have transmitted information (in this case, photon spin) over distance instantly. i.e. FTL communication'

you observe and thus affect photon A, and then instantaneously photon B is in a different state. However if you observe this you will change it.... actually having 'you' do the observation is kinda pointless because you already know the state of photon A... and you can only carry this information with you to photon B at Slower than Light Speed (STL).

The point you're missing is, in quantum systems you can't observe the system without changing it. Thus the ability of someone to predict what an observation will be at photon B isn't useful...

You can NOT set the state of photon A, and thus define the state of photon B, there will be a range of possible values, and when you detect/define which state photon A is in you do infact change the state of photon B, but nobody in the locality of photon B can get this information out without redefining it, due to the nature of quantum mechanics.

Maybe it is the fact that you ARE a engineering major that leads you to such an inability to comprehend quantum mechanics, or maybe it is the fact that you haven't studied quantum mechanics in sufficient detail that you're simply talking out of your arse... i just can't tell.
semck83 (229 D(B))
27 Sep 11 UTC
Orathaic and abge are right, krellin. Let's take your first link, for example. Go down near the bottom, where it lists references. Notice that it has a link to an article by Bennett, et al., which the article has said is the source for everything it's doing. The link takes you here:

http://www.research.ibm.com/quantuminfo/teleportation/teleportation.html

Now click on the link "The paper," and open it in a ps reader. Go to the bottom of page 2 and read the last sentence. Notice it says this:

"In particular it cannot take place instantaneously or over a spacelike interval...." Notice also that the title is "Teleporting an UNKNOWN Quantum state..." (emphasis mine).

Similarly, see the wikipedia page on this topic (which is also linked from the article you sent, and thus, presumably, considered by its authors to be a reliable source). It says, "[H]owever it does not immediately transmit classical information, and therefore cannot be used for communication at superluminal (faster than light) speed."

Here is why. Suppose we have two entangled particles, A and B. Say we're going to measure their spin. I take A and give you B, and then we go off ten billion light years away from each other. We've agreed to make the measurement at a particular time (relativistically specified, of course). I measure mine at the appropriate time, and get spin up. You measure yours and get spin down. Now, the minute that I measure spin up, I KNOW that you will get spin down. But I can't MAKE myself get spin up. I don't know what I'll get till I measure. So we can't do something like, "Send me spin-up if we win the war," or something, because I have no way to force a correlation between the outcome of the hypothetical war and the spin of the particle. So in this sense, I cannot send information. We do each know what the other's particle did -- so there was only one random event, not two, if you wish -- but we can't send any information that way. See?

Now, what the Bennett method allows you to do (and quite ingeniously) is to copy the state of a THIRD particle using entangled particles and the result of a classical experiment (which would have to be sent between us using traditional methods, such as a light-beam, or perhaps preferably, a neutrino beam). This is still pretty cool, but it is addressing a different problem -- not the speed of light information limit (which remains), but the measure-and-you-will-destroy (Heisenberg) barrier to reproducing a state.

Of course, it also destroys the original state, so it's all a very black-widowish kind of reproduction, lol.

Anyway, I hope you see that even your own sources don't support your position.

In frankness, I do think you were on the rude side toward abge even before his complaint, though admittedly you were not as rude as you often are, or were immediately after his complaint. You were merely very condescending.

It's easy to mock one for just accepting what professors say, and that is a potential area of going wrong. But another such area is never to learn what the professors say or understand it, and then to dive into research material and misunderstand it because you don't really understand the basic principles of the field (on which, as we've seen, even these researchers were building, and which they were assuming). Don't be too quick to accuse someone of the former when in fact you may be committing the latter.

Regards.
abgemacht (1076 D(G))
27 Sep 11 UTC
"Maybe it is the fact that you ARE a engineering major that leads you to such an inability to comprehend quantum mechanics"

Hey now, being an EE hasn't hindered me too much...
abgemacht (1076 D(G))
27 Sep 11 UTC
And I agree with semck

Both papers were very interesting to read and I thank you for them, but neither dealt with FTL comm. If anything, they discredited your argument.
"If you are not baffled by quantum mechanics, you simply haven't understood it." - Richard Feynmann

The topic you're dealing with is extremely tricky. It's by far not as simple as "grasping that 0 vs 1 is data". I remember there is a theorem (the no-cloning theorem) which states that you can't copy a quantum state. Apparently you can cut-and-paste them, but this destroys the original. That kinda limits the use of quantum entanglement to transimt information.

Since we're talking about quantum here, I'd like to ask your opinion about a gedanken-experiment I thought of myself (especially abge and semck, I'd like to hear from you).

Me and a friend (named Bob) both have a box. We get together, and prepare a pair of entangled spin-1/2 particles (in state 1\sqrt(2)(|++> + |-->) as usual). We each put one of them in our box, close it, and move away from each other. Then we walk back towards each other, and at the same time (in the lab frame) we measure the spin.

The trick is, I measure S_z, and Bob measures S_y. Being an astute observer, I would argue that Bob measured his particle a tiny bit earlier than me (which is true in my inertial frame). Therefore I am the last to measure the set, and the particles should be in an eigenstate of S_z. Bob, however, is sure that it is in an eigenstate of S_y. Who is right?

A more physical question to ask: if Bob measures S_y again, can he get a different answer than before? I'd say yes, but Bob would say no. What is the real probability?
orathaic (1009 D(B))
27 Sep 11 UTC
@abge, my apologies for question the noble profession of engineering, i meant no disrespect. I was merely echoing my opponent's arguement. I actually have friends who became members of... em... it is something like the engineer's association of Ireland and i know their charter requires that they defend the reputation of their chosen profession when they see someone attacking it.

I admit i didn't read the articles, I believe i have enough of an understanding to 'get' this area of physics, the quantum world is indeed a strange one.

in the ~19030s Einstien proposed a requirement which showed that quantum mechanics must either be non-local or have hidden variables... and as non-locality involved this weird instant transmission, thus appearing to violate causality, he therefore concluded that quantum mechanics was invalid (at least for the type of 'causal' universe in which he believed that he lived)

Later it was proved experimentally that he was right, quantum mechanics did involved this kind of non-local interaction, but also that this does NOT violate causality... which if you think about it is awesome, the universe is not only stranger than Einstien could imagine, it also agree with all our theories of causality AND quantum mechanics.

Both Einstien's theories and QM being right is really hard to fathom and really cool to be true about our Universe. And thus i conclude, Wow.
orathaic (1009 D(B))
27 Sep 11 UTC
@bas: good gedanken...
orathaic (1009 D(B))
27 Sep 11 UTC
@basvanopheusden, may i ask - if the two of you remain stationary and a large distance apart (but stationary relative to the same lab reference frame) and then attempt to measure the state at the same time. (say triggering your measurement device with a neutrino pulse - why not? - generated by your lab) What difference then does this have from your original experiment? What answer do you expect?
semck83 (229 D(B))
27 Sep 11 UTC
@basvanopheusden, entanglement only works if you both measure the same (or compatible) observables. If you measure incompatible observables, you immediately break entanglement.

So it is not true that after you measure S_z, the particleS should be in an eigenstate of S_z. What is known is that yours is, and Bob's WILL be (or was, in an intertial frame with reversed time ordering) in the OPPOSITE eigenstate of S_z IF he measures S_z.

However, he doesn't. He measures S_y, at an event spacelike-separated from your measurement of S_z. His particle is therefore now in an eigenstate of S_y, and there it will stay. If he measures S_y again, he will get the same value, and if you measure S_z again, you will get the same value. On the other hand, if he measures z (or you measure y), there will be no correlation.

What if he waited to measure S_y until the event of measurement was timelike-separated from your measurement? Then at that point, he would learn (assuming you immediately said) which eigenstate of S_z his particle was in, but of course, his measurement of S_y would still destroy that.
abgemacht (1076 D(G))
28 Sep 11 UTC
What's the matter, Krellin, Schrödinger's Cat got your tongue?
abgemacht (1076 D(G))
28 Sep 11 UTC
@bas

Could you clarify your thought experiment?

By S_z and S_y, do you mean you're measuring different observables? Because, as semck said, I don't think you can do that.

If, you mean S_z=Spin Up and S_y=Spin Down, I don't think anything fishy is happening. As soon as the 2nd measurement happens, the particle will act accordingly. And, since we have no chance of ever measuring them exactly at the same time, I'm not sure that line of thought is worth spending much time on.
abgemacht (1076 D(G))
28 Sep 11 UTC
@Semck

I've had these conversations with bas and orath many times; I'm glad to get someone new in the bunch.

What do you do?
semck83 (229 D(B))
28 Sep 11 UTC
Thanks abge. I'm currently in graduate school studying math (undergrad math and physics). I'm also a lawyer -- obviously, not practicing at the moment.
This is the background picture on my work PC...

http://icanhascheezburger.com/2008/04/09/schrodinger-improves-accuracy/
fulhamish (4134 D)
28 Sep 11 UTC
Yonni writes: ''So, without debating the significance of the discovery (I haven't read it yet and probably wouldn't understand enough of it if I did), is this an example of the merit of Big Science?

That is: Assuming that this is a major scientific breakthrough, does this do enough to convince the critics that government funded research is essential for progress of science?''

I agree that this is potentially a validation of ''experimental'' science rather than ''big'' science. Of course there are those who say that the experiment may not be repeatable and that their worldview need not be modified. This does rather make me snigger as, in other circumstances, this might be labelled as ''blind faith''! No the message is that good functioning labs are better than any # of rooms filled with graduate and post-graduate students churning out reams of mutually supportive computational modelling data. In matters science it is time that we put the horse in front of the cart again.
@abge: z and y are two different laboratorium axes. What looks like spin up from the z axis, looks like |up>+i|down>(ignore normalization from now on). It's explained ratehr well here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spin_(physics), Measuring spin along the x, y, and z axes.

The trick is that I don't want to measure at the same time. I want measurement A to happen before measurement B. But, if two events are spacelike separated (which is the crucial issue here), it's observer-dependent which one is first.

If I'm correct, the state |++> + |--> looks the same when rotated to the y-axis. So, from Bob's perspective, it's all the same as from mine.

The key should be compatibility of observables. According to QFT, any two localized operators, which are spacelike separtated, will commute. That means they share a common eigenbasis, and all is fine. However, I don't get which eigenbasis that could be. Let's answer first the question whether these two observables are compatible or not.
semck83 (229 D(B))
28 Sep 11 UTC
They are not compatible observables -- see e.g.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spin-%C2%BD#Connection_to_the_uncertainty_principle

And what matters is that they're not compatible observables at Bob.

The following discussion should be helpful:

http://electron6.phys.utk.edu/phys250/modules/module%203/entangled_electrons.htm

Notice that on further reflection, I've decided that my earlier statement that Bob's particle is not actually in the S_y down state (e.g.), but only will be if he measures it, is not quite correct. The result, however, is the same as what I said. These are incompatible observables; for purposes of calculation, you can assume (in EACH frame of reference) that the particle is in the eigenstate corresponding to the OTHER frame of reference BEFORE the measurement. This will give consistent and correct results (as the above website implicitly shows).

Very interesting and useful question, by the way.

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113 replies
hellalt (24 D)
27 Sep 11 UTC
I don't like the Like buttons.
Like this thread if you don't like them and maybe Kestas will get rid of them.
30 replies
Open
Yonni (136 D(S))
07 Sep 11 UTC
Winter Gunboat Tournament - Tier Two
See inside.
66 replies
Open
jpgredsox (104 D)
29 Sep 11 UTC
Libyan Intervention
http://dailycaller.com/2011/09/27/free-for-all-up-to-20000-anti-aircraft-missiles-stolen-in-libya/

This is great, just great. Tens of thousands of anti-aircraft missiles literally just sitting around in warehouses and similar facilities. I wonder who could possibly get a hold of those? This is just one of the many, unintended consequences interventionists and neoconservatives disregard when they argue to attack another country.
14 replies
Open
Yonni (136 D(S))
29 Sep 11 UTC
Haha. I couldn't be happier for Boston's misery
Tonight was ridiculous...
7 replies
Open
umbletheheep (1645 D)
29 Sep 11 UTC
Don't Do Drugs, Do Diplomacy!
gameID=68917 - Live game - Winner Takes All!
10 replies
Open
hwh2219 (0 DX)
28 Sep 11 UTC
gameID=66233
What should I have done to win
11 replies
Open
abgemacht (1076 D(G))
28 Sep 11 UTC
Last night I had a dream...
...that Kestas had changed the colors of the donator icons and I didn't like them very much.

I think I need to take a break from webDip...
4 replies
Open
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