"Maybe more African Americans should finish high school and quit going to jail. "

There we go. That's the real face of anti-Affirmative Action sentiment I was waiting for.

It's not inconsistent, perhaps that's why we haven't talked about it.

"As for my anecdotal evidence....it ins't anecdotal. After all, the whole aim of the program is to increase "diversity", so you tacitly admit that the program will use race as the source of a decision. So, while I cite anecdotal evidence"

White devil speak with forked tongue. Either it's anecdotal or it isn't.

If you look at it, pretty much all colleges are doing this, including those at the top (Harvard, etc.). Is it to boast minority rates and international students rates to prospective students, or is it to promote the diversity of backgrounds and ideas? I think it is a combination of the two.

Can you please explain to me how the fourteenth amendment is just cause for striking this down, Putin? Because any argument that has that as the punch line is going to be a great laugh.

unfortunately, Putin, such outcome based arguments will not convince many conservatives... indeed, I would suspect that such outcomes argue to them (quietly) that the brown skinned folk are inferior or lazy just by nature... besides, when evidence conflicts with their faith (in this case of divine providence and earning their high place) the evidence is chucked in favor of their continued faith.

Also amusing to see the conservative narrative change over the last century plus from "they're inferior and deserve their lot" and "they like their lowly position in the world, those carefree singing/smiling simple folk" to "we're not oppressing them, your plans to lend them a hand is what is oppressing them" to "yes, they were oppressed horribly but that's water under the bridge" and "no take backs" and "it's not my fault what my great-grandparents stole from their neighbors and I inherited - it's mine now"

Smiley it depends on how you define equality, whether you look at the long or short term. That's how. Maybe they used a different justification because I didn't read the opinion, but that's what I'm guessing they said.

Also krellin... that shit about "maybe black people should be less shitty at life" is... fucked. Do you actually know anything about what it's like to live in the ghetto? This isn't me saying I know it very well either... but it would seem I know a bit more than you if you really believe what you just wrote.

Joining a gang is often not a choice, dude. Dropping out of school is sometimes the sensical thing to do.

"Quit going to jail"? Yeah. Let's talk about that. Did you know that a black man is more likely to be jailed for the same crime than a white man? This is documented fact. How about before we tell them "quit going to jail" we tell juries "stop being racist."

"There we go. That's the real face of anti-Affirmative Action sentiment I was waiting for. " It has nothing to do with whether or not I believe in affirmative action, dumbass. It is simply a **reality** that statistically, more African Americans per capita drop out of school and go to jail and prison than White's, by a substantial number. If you knew anything else besides your closed-minded life of philosophical academia, you would understand that most businesses have no interest in hiring people that can't finish school (and therefore, what - can hardly read? Have bad math skills? Have no record of achievement..) and who have violated the public trust by breaking the law.

Again...MOST of us here live in Reality-ville, and understand that the unemployment rate has nothing to do with skin color, and *everything* to do with whether or not somebody applying for a job comes with the proper skills to help make the potential employer a success.

re: Anecdotal evidence -- Putin, I never denied that my story was anecdotal. Of course it was. My point -- if you would take about 2 seconds to grasp it -- is that you claim my anecdotal evidence is worthless, and yet what you support -- racially-motivated bonuses for school -- is what my anecdote describes as happening in the past, and which will now happen again. But my anecdote IS A FACT - it DID happen, and it will continue to happen. You seem to think that this thing hasn't happened in the past, and the fact that IT DID under the past rules that were now just RE-implemented in Michigan, it will happen again. I.e. WHITE people that are highly qualified for positions will be bumped in favor of skin color, regardless of skill sets comparisons, so that UoM and such can claim to be fair. It's so disgustingly Orwellina. War is peace and all that crap. But, as a socialist, you should love that. and you should LOVE my anecdote because it describes exactly what you WANT to happen.

sometimes doing the right thing includes paying for the sins of your fathers...
not to say that the past can be undone - but we can at least undo the inheritance of that past that continues to perpetuate a legacy of poverty (and all that entails) and maltreatment to one class, and a legacy of inherited wealth and privilege to another

@Thucy -- Yes - tell juries to stop being racist. I agree. And in the meantime, black teenagers should stay in school, not smoke dope, not break every window in the city of Detroit, not shoot each other at parties.

You may claim racism in the legal system, and yet the city of Detroit is surrounded my communities - and I mean right up to the border - that are primarily Caucasian. Every day -- EVERY DAY -- I listen to reports of shootings, stabbings and arson in Detroit. But you cross an invisible line into Redford, Southfield, Grosse Point, etc etc etc and there are not anywhere NEAR the same levels of crime. The primary difference is the culture....the color of the people i the communities. You may not like that fact, but it is a fact.

@Dexter. Nobody....NOBODY....in my family was in the United States during slavery. YOU are a perfect example of "reverse racism", suggesting simply because I am white that my ancestors have sinned. In fact, my immigrant family roots came to the country and struggled in poverty until they lifted themselves out. I don't owe ANYBODY ANYTHING.

Yeah I am not big on paying for the sins of your fathers. At all.

That said? There is more going on here than that. Imagine my dad stole $1,000,000 from your dad and then left it to me. Then I turn 18 and find out where it came from, and how you're doing (you're not doing very well).

Would the right thing to do be to say "well come on man just pull yourself up by your bootstraps! I can't pay for the sins of my father that's unjust."

Or would it be to say - damn dude.... I'm really sorry for what my dad did I would never have done that here have it back. Here already spent like 30% of it but here's what's left - it's the least I could do.

Which is right?

He* already spent

Krellin buddy it has nothing to do with what your actual ancestors were like. They could have been abolitionists. It doesn't matter.

The point is that as a white person (if in fact you are white) you have benefited from the exploitation of other races, especially black people for Americans.

Your ancestors didn't have to be there for it they just had to benefit from it, which they did. Everyone did, except the oppressed.

Same goes with imperialism. America didn't colonize anyone (much), but that doesn't mean we had nothing to do with imperialism. How do you think things like coffee, chocolate, and bananas that don't come from North America came to be so cheap and popular? Third world entrepreneurs? Lol.

And krellin I think you are right that certain minority communities have a culture of crime, drugs, etc.

But you have to ask yourself, is it their fault that that's their culture? Is it inherent to them? If you answer yes to that question then... well... that makes you racist.

Do you think that if it had been biologically white people who lived in Africa and were enslaved and were exploited etc and grouped into ghettoes that we would have behaved differently? No, I don't think so.

@Thucy -- NO, it is NOT INHERENT to them. EVERYBODY is capable of choosing to NOT commit a crime....that is why I have no sympathy for some dumbass that tells me it isn't a guys fault that he's in jail because he's black and it's his culture. You actually just made my point for me.

ah no no no you miss the point.

i'm glad you don't believe that it's inherent... we can put that behind us.

but answer my question about the role reversal, if it was white people put in ghettoes. do you believe there would be less recidivism, less drug dealing, less crime, less dropping out, gangs, etc?

@ Putin - Perhaps the lower rate of graduation for latino and african american students is because they are getting into schools that are simply too hard for them due to affirmative action? That would also mean more white students are not getting into the high level schools they want to, therefore going to easier colleges and thus more of them graduate? I mean, I know if I had gone to Georgetown instead of American that my grades would be significantly lower. I mean, now I'm on the deans list without batting an eyelash.

Here's my story, though you seem not to like personal anecdotes.

I was salutatorian of my high school, with a 101.2 grade point average, an eagle scout, drum major of the band, all state trumpet player, varsity crew member, President of Model UN, and President of Key Club among other things. I took pretty much as many AP exams as the school would allow, and got all 5's, and got very good SAT and ACT scores, a 2240 and a 34. I didn't get into any ivy league schools.

The year before me, a friend of mine, who happened to be african american, got into Harvard. She was something like ranked 9th in her class, had a lower GPA, no sports, not president of any club, and wasn't taking the level classes I was ( I was in Calc BC, and she was in Pre-Calc for example). I do remember that she was in Spanish Honor scoiety (like me), National Honors Society (like me), choir, drama club and a Model UN member.

Now, we were from about the same economic background, so I fail to understand why she got in and I didn't. Its either she wrote a phenomenal essay, some random unknown reason, or affirmative action, in my eyes, but I would welcome an outside view.

And yeah, maybe I'm guilty of the "water under the bridge" thing, but I really don't see why I have to suffer, when it is possible that we can live in a world where everyone is equal. It takes time to get rid of the old inequalities, but look at gender. Women are coming very close to earning as much as men. Yes, at the very top it is still unequal, but women are working their way up and it will just be a matter of time before they overtake men and make things truly equal, or even skewed to their favor. Heck, I work at Target for the summer, and 7 out of 9 of my Team Leads are women (of course the store manager is a man though....maybe not the best example lol).

And krellin, I;m going to have to agree with Thucy on this one. Our criminal system is helplessly outdated and racist. A lot of parolees don't have the job opportunities or help they need out in the real world, and are forced back into prison by our ineptitude to help them. And if you live in a world of gangs, it is extremely easy to get in, and very hard to get out. A lot of these urban poor work several jobs just to keep their homes and feed their kids, so they don't have time to parent their children properly, and they are left to their surroundings, which more often than not is gang life. What we need is rec centers where they can go and be safe until their parents get home

So goldfinger I have almost the exact same anecdote - I wasn't as impressive a kid as you but:

A good friend of mine, black, 2nd gen African, not poor, was about as good a student as I, was in a few more extracurriculars. She got into Rice and some Ivy League. I didn't, by any stretch of the imagination.

Yeah that's probably to with her race. But I'm not beating myself up over it. Think of it this way. I'll use Rice U as an example:

It used to be an all white school, just like every other school. If it hadn't been for affirmative action, it would still probably be mostly white with some asians. the people with the best applications.

but here is why that is fucked up - if it continues like that, how are poor minorities ever going to go to college? they will never break the poverty cycle and will be locked out forever.

thus there is the intermediary step taken of affirmative action - a necessary evil with the aim of getting things like university enrollment to reflect demographic distribution.

at first that entails accepting less qualified minorities, yes. but there is a reason they are less qualified, and giving them this chance is intended to get there kids to be more qualified, so that one day the process can be stopped.

i'm sure you understand that but just think about that for a bit and tell me what better way there is to correct the wrongs of this world.

Well Thucy that's a valid point, but this system has been going on for what now, 40 years? 50? Its to a point where now people whose parents went to college on affirmative action are now going to college....how many generations does this have to continue before we say "okay everything's good now" I think the real problem is that the economically poor aren't getting into college, and that its the poor that should receive the help, regardless of color. Its just that african americans and hispanics have a disproportionate poverty rate. Why not let poor white kids go to college too? My ex girlfriend (white) was an A student, but was in a single-parent family, her mom worked two jobs and simply didn't have the money to go to college even though she had the brains.

I mean you make an argument that we should help the poor minorities, so why not it be just help the poor?

And there was this one news report I saw a few months ago on CNN i think it was. A couple of guys had made a white-only scholarship, and every pundit they had on the show was going nuts over it. Why should that be a big deal when so many scholarships apply to only people of a certain race or background?

"I think the real problem is that the economically poor aren't getting into college, and that its the poor that should receive the help, regardless of color. Its just that african americans and hispanics have a disproportionate poverty rate."

This. The only person who's provided an answer to this question was Putin, whose cited survey took some stereotypically white and black names, stuck them on some résumés and unduly isolated the race variable when other factors could have been at play that affected who got callbacks. Hardly conclusive enough to warrant exclusively race-based policy.

Fact is that the problem is economic in nature, not racial, and so the solution must be economical. If you make it economical you will disproportionately help the disproportionately impoverished minorities while also helping poor white people who are in the same fix as poor minorities. Making it race-based continues the age-old racial divides and does NOT perpetuate the colorblind society everyone here supposedly wants to see. It perpetuates racial thinking. The only progressive solution on this racial question is economic.

Yeah no I agree goldfinger I just think that there is still such a thing as discrimination based singly on race. See my above post in response to AlexNesta or whoever.

I think the reason they are based on race (there are also those on finance) is that certain races continue to be underrepresented.

Affirmative action is messy I agree but it would be worse if there was nothing.

Fantastic, President Eden. I completely agree. Unfortunately, we've approximately a 30 year period where the dominant narrative in American politics is that noticing that economic class means something in America is "class warfare".

"Perhaps the lower rate of graduation for latino and african american students is because they are getting into schools that are simply too hard for them due to affirmative action? "

Those numbers refer to high school, not college graduation rates.

I agree Thucy that to some degree there is still racial bias, but I hope as the older generations retire, the more tolerant younger generations will be able to get rid of that.

And some colleges would like to have different representations. Howard University and La Salle College have huge african american populations. Meanwhile, American has a huge majority of whites (and 15% international students who tend to hide in their dorm rooms :/ )

Don't mistake me though. Affirmative action was good and necessary, but it has to end at some point.