I get it, dilb. If you're a Christian, the standard doctrine is that intercourse between men or between women is sinful. fine. But from that to conclusions about marriage which is not just a religious rite but has a recognized legal status, that same legal status cannot be denied to gays in a just society. There just isn't any more to say on the issue.

@dibster

How do you justify being gay being morally wrong? There is no evidence to support that a gay man is more likely to negatively affect society than a straight man. Furthermore, how can you justify not letting gays marry? If it was a meaningless ceremony performed by the church, I'd agree that it isn't worth fighting about. But, it isn't. There a real, tangible benefits to marriage (taxes, visitation rights, power of attorney, etc) that come along with marriage. Gays should not be denied that. Also, it's not like marriage is that impressive of a thing to begin with. In the US, divorce rate is over 50%, so it's not like we're lessening the importance of marriage by letting more people do it. Straights do a good enough job of making marriage a joke.

It's nice that you don't think people should be mean to someone because of their sexual orientation, but unless you can answer those questions, you're version or moral compass is clearly off kilter.

oopps, mashed three sentences into one there right at the end. "...your moral compass is..."

Heterosexual couples get married because they are expected to. Homosexual couples get married because they truly want to. I think the GLBT marriages probably have a *better* chance of success than the hetero marriages. I had a boss get married once because he wanted to climb the corporate ladder and he and his girlfriend since college were both going on 30. It lasted 2 years and he was miserable as a result.

I'd be careful to make that generalization, Draug. There are plenty of straight couples that truly want to get married and there are also gay couples that end up divorcing. Because gay marriage is so new, it may seem this way, but it certainly isn't inherent.

Your right that it is a generalization and only time will tell if it is accurate. But anecdotal evidence indicates that the generalization is true to the majority in both cases so far.

When gay marriage is as ubiquitous as straight marriage, I am very confident the divorce rate will be the same.

so what you're saying is

we can reduce the divorce rate in America

IF

we restrict gays from marrying

because that keeps expectations about them getting married down, which means they only do it if they really want it, which means that the divorce rate is slimmer

urgh....I guess technically I am saying that. But, the same could be said of restricting straight couples from marrying.

lol dude I'm just trolling a serious thread, no worries

heh I know, but you did a great job of really warping what I said.

:D:D:D

president eden +1 for the excellent quality trolling =]

Actually i beleive the Catholic church is trying to restrict hetro marrages by forcing people to undergo pre-marriage councilling and other pr-marriage courses.

Basically this makes it more exclusive or means if you want to marry in a church you have to prove you really want to get married and know what you're doing...

Seems reasonable enough

Can you imagine a government deciding to do that?

Well apart from, eh, let's say Iran, no no Afghanistan!

I wouldn't consider marrying a couple without pre-marriage counseling; any couple I commit to marry has to take an extensive questionnaire, meet with me at least 6 times, and promise to accept a referral to a marriage counselor if I think they need it.

I don't object to that, but in our 'freedom loving society' to see a government deciding that it has the right to decide who can and can't marry is unimaginable.

Afghanistan could do it (if not for tribal ritual being a bit stronger locally than government powers) but it would be seen as an afront to human rights (mainly the right to reproduce, i think)

Whereas in our society people choose to be married by a priest/pastor, and they are free when making this choice. I approve, the reference to Afghanistan is to contrast the systems of governance, not to imply religious folks are akin to nazis...

We need to pass tests for driver licenses. Would it be so horrible to have some sort of litmus test before marriage? You are getting a lot of benefits...

nay, parenting test. with removal of the child from the family/mother if they fail. (but she'll have ~9 months to study, so she should be fine...)

actually given that our education system sucks, if it was first fixed this could fit right into a new life long approach to learning, making education a more informal and generally expecting thing to do, not just for youth, but for all productive members of society (who need to keep up with the times to avoid ageism...)

"with removal of the child from the family/mother if they fail."

o.O

I just think it isn't right that men can love men physically. And women, women. It denies the nature of a human being.