"Not one of the major news outlets has covered the positive things that have been happening."

Something positive has been happening? That's great news! Yes, there's been a positive trend in # of car bombs in Iraq. In 2002, there was 0, and now there's hundreds each year!
There's a negative trend in # of terrorist attacks by muslim fundamentalists on American soil, though. In 2001, there was one big event allegedly performed by them, and none ever since, despite the fact that there are hordes of american-hating terrorists just waiting to strike at the hearth of the enemy. You Homeland Security is absolutely the most efficient anti-terrorist network in the World ;) How they missed the preparations for 9/11 is a real mystery.

your coming to the assumtion that i havn't read the koran or had it explained to me by a very highly repected islamic scholar

Trim... I don't have to assume. I've figured out by now that you haven't read more than a handful of pages, if anything at all.

Denzel... Allegedly? How can you possibly say that the 9/11 attack was -allegedly- performed by Muslim extremists? You truly are deluded. Not only did they take credit for it, which would be called a "confession" in courts of law, but you can hear them talking on the recorded audio from the hijacked planes. The people who took over those aircraft weren't speaking German, or Spanish, or Italian, etc. They were speaking Arabic. The last thing they said before they died was "God is great" - Allahu Akbar. Not to mention the phone calls from the hostages on those planes who were flown to their deaths. Open your eyes!

Yes, something positive is happening. The people of Iraq are participating in self-rule, under a republic instead of a tyranny, and they are taking over the defense of their own country against the extremists who have flocked to their country and killed more than 40,000 innocent Iraqis.

"despite the fact that there are hordes of american-hating terrorists just waiting to strike at the hearth of the enemy" ... Look up a few posts. Why travel around the world to kill an American when you can use less than a tank of gas and find a lot of them? More delusions.

The Department of Homeland Security was formed on November 25, 2002. So, yeah, they didn't exist to notice the preparations of 9/11.

And, really, the number of terror attacks in Iraq has been declining. The most recent high point was 126 US soldiers dead in May 2007, and the number hasn't risen above 30 per month since April 2008.

This thread started as a discussion on China and France and the subject of a meeting.
The question to ask yourselves is would this web site be subsequently banned by the Great Firewall because of it?
Another Diplomacy Website was banned in China and blocked. We never found out exactly why. However it was pointed out by Chinese players that such discussions could have been the cause.
I think that adds to the complexity of perception between the various sides and relates it to a real world situation which directly affects players sine suddenly Chinese players were barred from access to a Diplomacy game.
This may tell you something of the background of what people here may consider as just a casual meaningless rant/screed or whatever.

Good point, Edi. We should probably steer clear of the topics that could get some of our players barred from playing through governmental censorship.

We'll already have crossed that line Marchosias :P

Not my point of what we should or should not do in our own free societies.
My point was that within the confines of the original discussion it tells us more about the two sides of the arguments than all the monotonous rehash of things and relates it to our hobby.

Just by putting the topic about China up, yes, but we shouldn't put up any more topics in that same vein.

Well in that case, China rules... yes, we love China...

Sorry to go back to the Al Queda thing, but there are a few points I want to make-
"why travel halfway around the world to kill westerners when you can hop in a car and use less than one tank of gas, and, look! There they are! Westerners to kill!"
You seem to be under the presumption that all extremist Muslims live in the middle East. Living in Britain, I am well aware that my country is a breeding ground for extremism. I don't know how in touch you are with British news, but a couple of years ago we had bombs going off in London, on the busses and underground tube system. These weren't attacks from the middle east, these were British citizens bringing chaos to the country they had lived in their whole lives for their religion.
It's very sad, but we seem to have reached a point where when we think of Islam out first thought is terrorism. A shame that a minority of fanatics can bring such a bad name to a major world religion, the majority of whose followers are ordinary people.

I think we are veering off topic now, haven't we?

Yes, I'm well aware of the British attacks. I'm in the minority of Americans who actually pay attention to what happens beyond our borders :P

I was responding to the point Denzel was making- that apparently the extremists don't want to attack America because they haven't since 9/11, even though there's "hordes" of them that want to. You make another excellent point. The war is growing. Its not just extremists from the middle east- they're recruiting everywhere they can.

For example... right here in my home state- the South Bay Mobilization. "Members of South Bay have had luncheons with Ismail Haniyeh, the head of Hamas, and have accepted medals from him in a highly propagandistic manner."

The problem with thinking of Islam and terrorism, Glorious, is that the minority are very much more vocal than the majority. I've heard of a number of efforts of Islamic leaders attempting to spread the word of peace, but they just get drowned out by the daily reports of Islamic extremists killing innocent people.

Sorry Giramondo. It would be my fault that the topic got so far away from the original intent. But when I hear things like "Maybe next US president will start actually talking to Ahmadinejad, and why not, Bin Laden. They may actually tell him how they feel and what they want" ... It sets me off. Yes, lets talk more with people who would love nothing more than to kill or enslave every non-muslim in the world...

In support of trim's point - China has done much worse than the US towards muslims within its borders. Actually suppressing it entirely and formally dismissing it as superstition. China hasn't interfered in the middle east though and as far as I'm aware only one attack on China was attributed to muslim extremists in recent years. I'd say that this means if the US stopped supporting persecution of palestinians in Israel, didn't back tyrannical regimes during their worst years and didn't force the same country into submission when it no longer suited them you wouldn't have 9/11 or most of the other attacks.

I\ve also seen plenty of support for the US invasion of Iraq and the media didn't go into the enemy body count. The government decided it was 'too upsetting' - Choosing to abandon the realism of Vietnam correspondence 30 years ago and to 'direct' media attention. The negative here wasn't anywhere near as negative as it used to be. I've also seen plenty of the good your soldiers are doing over there, in fact very often. Much of what they're doing in restoration will be beneficial to the Iraqis, redefining the country. Saying that all the media attention has been negative is just false.

Suppressing Islam and dismissing it as superstition? Please cite your evidence. According to Wiki, "There are five recognized religions by the state, namely Buddhism, Taoism, Islam, Catholicism, and Protestantism."

The US does not support the persecution of Palestinians in Israel. The US supports Israels right to exist, despite religious intolerance and bigotry from all directions.

"According to Juan Cole, a University of Michigan Professor of Modern Middle East and South Asian History, Ahmadinejad's statement should be translated as: The Imam said that this regime occupying Jerusalem must [vanish from] the page of time."

Every person has the right to exist freely. That's the main point of the United States. And we wouldn't be a good custodian of freedom if we allowed free peoples to perish under hate and ignorance.

You think the US provoked terrorist attacks on itself?

"I am one of the servants of Allah. We do our duty of fighting for the sake of the religion of Allah. It is also our duty to send a call to all the people of the world to enjoy this great light and to embrace Islam and experience the happiness in Islam. Our primary mission is nothing but the furthering of this religion."
Osama bin Laden, May 1998

Convert or die.

Sura (8:12) - "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them"


You've seen plenty of support from the media, eh? Maybe. Thats anecdotal evidence, at best. "Have we undercovered the good news?" asks John Burns, Baghdad bureau chief for The New York Times. "We probably have."

So, no, the claim isn't false. Exaggeration, yes. But not false.

The communist ideology held by China dismisses religion itself as superstition. 70% of Chinese hold beliefs that are classified as irreligion. Its taught in their school systems as inherently manipulative - and implied that its superstition. It may be 'officially' recognized but it is still suppressed by the system.

The US supports the Israeli governments decisions. When these decisions allow Israeli citizens to colonize land owned by Palestinians without repurcussions the US supports it. It hasn't done enough to prevent continued settlement in the west bank recently.

How is allowing Jewish settlers to settle Palestinian land not supporting their persecution? The US policy on Israel allows Israelis to have life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness even when it removes that right from the Palestinians.

Bin Ladens primary justification for the attack was American support for Israel. The lead American investigator cited it as their primary justification as well. Since his videos have implied 'you had it coming' rather than 'convert or die' I think its fair to say he intended it as retaliation. It also is logical to retaliate whereas most would assume that the 9/11 slaughter wouln't do much to convert people.

I've seen a large share of media attention being drawn to the US and allies training the Iraqi forces and providing business liscences. We're also seeing a large amount of attention being drawn to the evolution and successes of the new Iraqi parliament and democracy. What more do you want the press to be covering? Getting more detailed would probably make it seem manufactured - and it of course would be. A very strong pro-government bias.

Your point about the body count was used in the Vietnam War when every kill was tallied as part of Westmoreland's "kill the Viet Cong faster than they can be recruited" strategy. It was then pasted on every newspaper daily so everyone would see it steadily rise. The death toll in the Iraq war only mentioned American soldier deaths and was not put on the front page of daily newspapers.

Irs hardly as critcal as the past and yes your accusation was false.

Although, the only American news station we get here is CNN international. Is it possible that they are more critical and ignore the accomplishments within the US?

Oh, and to make my point clear. The US did provoke rhe attacks in the sense that its government did something that Islamic extremists were offended by and retaliated. Doesn't that qualify as provocation? It doesn't justify the attacks but it definitely can be defined as provocation.

Oh Marchosias. Do you ever wonder why everyone else here is wrong and you are the only one right?

WIthin a religion of a billion people you can get some bad apples. I just hope the Americans haven't enraged an entire generation against the West for invading their country. If you invaded my country and destroyed my home I might flip out myself.

Marchosis, just a couple of things

I agree that extremists and fundamentalists are bad people who spread violence and want to kill non-Muslims.

But I think a couple of clarifications might be useful:

Firstly, the biggest victims of Muslim Extremists have been... wait for it... Muslims.
A simplification of terrorism as "Some Muslims are trying to kill/ enslve all Westerners" is totally wrong and unhelpful to properly understanding the problem.
Most of the groups began as nationalist groups, fighting for regional freedom. Pashtun nationalist, Palestinian nationalists, etc etc.

Most terrorist incident around the world kill more of thier own people than foreign oppressors, because the cause is civil strife. Muslim fundamentalists are no different. Have you heard of terrorists attacking sites in Iraq, Jordan, Syria, Afghanistan, and Pakistan?

Well, in case you didn't know, these countries have majority Muslim populations, and that applies to the victims.

The roots of these problems go back many years, but not all that far.
I don't think it would be too far-fetched to say that if perhaps the west had not colonized and raped the Middle East for a couple centuries, some of todays problems wouldn't exist.

Furethermore, it also might not be too huge a stretch to say that improving domestic stuations might also breed less terrorism.
On this point I'm not solely blaming the American military/Government. The Syrian Gov't, the Taliban, Saddam, the Iranians the Saudi Gov't, they have a whole lot of shit to answer for. Reppression, interracial and intereligious strife: All of this has helped build a culture of violence in the birthplace of civilization.
But the fact that Ameria keeps intervening doesn't really help strife-wise, however justified. And the American military certainly doesn't always possess the moral high ground. If only.

But thats not what this is about.

Now, merely passing this off as a war between the US and Islam (and those who espouse the extremist things it 'really' says) does two very bad things:

1- It misinterprets the problem and doesn't provide any valuable solution. If an entire people hate you vehemently and there is nthing you can do? What is there to do? Bomb all of them?

2- It paints the entire Religion of Islam in one giant hateful stroke. Sure, the Quran contains many passages referring to violence. If you wish, I can scrounge up a couple 'peaceful' quotes from the Quran too. And you know what? I can then do the same thing with the Bible.

Is Christianity an inherently violent thing? I don't really think so, but it sure has been in the past, and pretty close to the present. (Northern Ireland anyone?).

My point is that religion isn't inherently violent, but it is well-suited to justifying violence if conditions are right.

You do a disservice to the vast majority of peaceful and surprisingly progressive Muslims out there, and you further a culture of misunderstanding and hate that continues to harm our world. I respect your opinion, but I vehemently disagree.

OK, back to the thread topic :P

Edi, what is your point about the firewall?

I think all sides can agree that the Chinese Government is currently far more prone to censorship than its Amrican counterpart.

It is a semi-Dictatorial pseudo-Communist state of 1.3 Billion people. Its not that surprising that it feels it must resort to extreme tactics to prevent mass disagreement with its rule.

Does that mean we shouldn't take stock in what its Government says? Probably not.

@Glorious93 - èhas anyone heard of a terrorist who once won the Nobel Peace Prize?è refers to Nelson Mandela, Giramondo mentioned him before I did.

I thought he was referring to the Dalai Lama

Let's talk about China.

Let's talk about the industrial cities where people must wear those white air filtration masks over their face 24/7.

Let's talk about the peaceful Falun Dafa practitioners who get dragged into windowless rooms and burned in the face with electric baton shocks.

Of course, if you'd rather not discuss it, I'll understand.

Unpleasant truths can be painful......

Just remember, we LOVE China and we don't want them to ban this site.

I've posted my reply to all the posts made after my last post in a new thread in an attempt to unclutter this one- "The Terrorism stuff from the France/China thread"

In soviet china, goverment thinks for you.