Hey Thucy, you still haven't addressed questions regarding your sexist comments about a woman's role in Greek society. Man up.

"Thucydides" is a social construction

This society? Webdip has a persistent problem with rape culture?

haha what the hell dubmdell is reposting me

looks like ive made it yall

i can stop using the internet now. been reposted.

"Rape culture is when a speaker at a political convention makes a rape joke about a sexual violence victim advocate, and he brings the house down with laughter."

With the link
http://www.motherjones.com/mojo/2013/03/cpac-where-ashley-judd-rape-jokes-happen

Sorry... I've watched that a few times now and I've not noticed the house being brought down with laughter. There was a polite chuckle, and one person clapped. "he brings the house down with laughter" is a blatent lie and makes me question every other point on the page. Also... that's a rape joke?? It's not quite how I imagined them...

There are a couple of seemingly good points in the article, but most of it is complete guff. Some of those adds (none of which I've ever seen) are rather disturbing, and I'm not sure how they ever came into use. The pizza add... maybe I'm missing something but that seems totally harmless.

Still, if that is the best evidence for rape culture then I can happily conclude that it doesn't exist. Thank you for bringing it to my attention.

That's the tragedy of this whole rape culture thing isnt it - taking the argument too far. There are certainly valid concerns ( those tweets and threats are ridiculous, time for another slutwalk). It's the generalization to a 'culture' as a whole, to 'this society' which weakens the whole argument. If we're going to succeed in righting the wrongs here, we're better off identifying them properly rather than veiling them in 'culture'.

Yeah Octavious, sure it was a bad exaggeration, but that list was like 40 items long. It's strange that you would conclude there is no problem just because you took issue with one point. I, also, take issue with the "if you make a joke or laugh at a joke you are part of the problem" points, but that doesn't mean that the rest of them are invalid.

MoW: But that's the point of this article! It's trying to draw attention to how rape is treated within our culture in a systematic way that sympathizes with the rapist, and I'm starting to become more and more convinced. I don't feel that the generalization is a problem at all - in fact it's central to raising awareness. People don't like to hear that argument because we're happier saying, "Not ME. I'M not a rapist. I'M not part of the problem. No way, no how." I know that's my first response. But if we can identify things about ourselves that we don't like, we as a society, and as individuals, are more apt to root it out. And this article is part of a longer chain of things I've seen that is convincing me that there is some level of sickness in this regard.

@ YJ

I looked in detail at that point in particular as the "rape joke" topic is one often discussed on these forums. I also had a lot of trouble with many of the points.

The article started badly for me with its "Yeah, I hear ya. I’m tired of talking about it. But I’m going to keep talking about it because people like you keep asking that question" bit. I have yet to hear anything about rape culture outside this forum. There are no legions of activists making it a big issue anywhere near me, and no one is asking about it.

It then began its points. About half of the points were pretty much the same point. Some athletes raped a young woman and were justly banged up for it. Being charismatic and popular sportsmen they naturally had a lot of supporters who defended them. In the manner of debates using the internet this defence included a lot of over the top nonsense. None of this is surprising. None of this points to a culture of rape in society.

She does post some evidence to suggest there may be a disturbing acceptance of rape in the sporting societies of some US university campuses. How much weight I can give these claims I don't know, as she has proven herself unreliable with the rape joke comment, but I accept it could well exist.

The rest of the points are mostly about politicians, and in the US you can find a political quote in favour of anything if you search hard enough. I see no evidence that this is widespread. Indeed the politicians who made these quotes I seem to recall being blasted for it. This points more to a strong anti-rape culture than anything else.

The modifying behavoir point has always annoyed me. It's not putting the blame on the victim. It's common sense. In the same way you wouldn't leave your wallet or purse on the passenger seat of your car and park it in the wrong part of town.

The adverts I mentioned previously...

That's pretty much the whole thing covered.

How does college athletes being criminal assholes and raping agree in any way equate to a culture in the US? I agree all the shit in the first 30 or 40 posts was bad shit. Hell, it was criminal shit. Covering it up. Sweeping it under the rug, etc. But that was a college campus. One college campus. And even if it happened at *every* college campus. That does not make a national or societal culture. It makes an on campus culture only and that is an easy one to fic. Throw the mother fuckers in jail and burn the fucking campus to the ground. Shut it down and punisha ll involved. No matter "campus security" and "student/faculty handling". Bring in the fucking cops and take care of it. Clean fucking house. But don't try to say that all of America has the culture just because college students are fucking criminal assholes and college proferssors and administrators are too worried about keeping mommy and daddy happy andgetting their money to prosecute the fucking criminals.

Something got dropped or altered at the beginning of that post, but the essence came across I think. College life does not equal all of society. It is a microcosm of hormones that should be ended anyhow. Students are there to fucking learn, not party and socialize. Learn for fuck's sake. And most of the US couldn't give a fuck if campuses were put on lock down all across the US and students told "you are here to study not party". So if that is what it takes to stop the *campus* rape culture (and that *does* exist) then do it, God damn it.

The big problem with "rape culture" on campuses isn't that students rape each other all the time. The problem lies with administrators and coaches who fail to act in the victim's best interest. Look at the Steubenville football coach, for example. Texts sent by the two football players implied a sense that they could get away with anything just because they knew this coach. Even the coach himself thought of himself as the most powerful guy in the district, and in a lot of ways, he was. Its the same story with Penn State and Joe Paterno. Guys that have gotten so entrenched in their positions that they can intimidate and coerce community members into not reporting violations or crimes.

There's no such thing as a "rape culture," only a culture that blames the victims or covers up crimes because of power. The same sense of power that let the football players in Steubenville rape a drunk girl tried to keep the incident covered up.

Thucy, didn't repost you. Just didn't scan the forums down far enough because your thread was buried, and you haven't exactly been active, so, you know, didn't figure you'd have posted the link.

I'm totally with Draug on this one. Yes it's bad shit. So send in the cops. But equating it to the the whole 'culture' in 'this society'? That's taking it too far.

And indeed, from a strategic point of view, very foolish. You could have me arguing on the side of 'persecute the dickheads!'. Instead, I feel forced to emphasise that the generalization is going too far.

But even that is limited to on campus or, at worst, the towns around the campus. Cincinnati nor Columbus would put up with that shit out of UC or OSU. The cities are too big, but Oxford, Ohio might be influenced and become part of the campus cover up just because Miami U is the only thing outside of Heuston Woods/Acton LAke that brings anyone into that little town.

Rape **SUB**-Culture. That I will agree with. To suggest that there is an *overall* rape culture in the US is simply idiotic...given that 50% of teh country is women, generally the victims of rape, and I'm *certain* that if you poll those women they would not agree with your assertion that they turn a blind eye to the problem.

Is there a problem in certain SUB-cultures of the US? Atheltics? Rap/Hip-Hop music culture? Certainly...but don't you dare wrap the rest of us up in that.

If you are going to make such a broad generalization and apply it to the US...then I say we have a "greedy banking culture" in the US and we are all guilty of empowering the banks to make ungodly profits...after all, we are aware of the "problem" and yet very few of us are actively doing anything to curb the "problem" or promote legislation to change it.

There is also a huge "abortion culture" in the country, because most people go about their day-to-day life ignoring the problem of abortion, because it doesn't affect them personally.

Ironically, there is also a huge "Anti-abortion" problem, in which criminal blow up abortion clinics and harass doctors performing a legal medical procedure...and we are *all* guilty of this pro-life culture, as we are aware of the protests, and yet do nothing to stop them....

This is an important problem that affects a small percentage of the population. It is a problem - certainly - as are *many* things in this society. What, *exactly*, would you have us do? Because as soon as you tell me what I *need* to do about this cause that *you* find as *most important*, I will have a hundred other people lining up to tell me that *their* personal crusade is the *most important problem* facing the country today...

So, I'm asking you *very* realistically: What would you have me do?

What I *do* do: I raise my girls with morals and principles that I think will help protect them. I make them aware of what boys *might* be after, and teach them to be on guard, at all times....and don't tell me I'm part of the problem by teaching my daughters that *they* are responsible in part for their own safety...after all, I assume you password protect your accounts, and you wouldn't put your wallet on the restaurant table and walk away to the bathroom leaving your cash unguarded, and you wouldn't leave your house with the front door wide open...i.e. in your own life, you take reasonable and logical precautions to protect yourself. You wouldn't willingly drive your vehicle in to the middle of known, violent gang territory of an inner city, for example...

...and yet, as part of your diatribe, there is an assertion that teaching girls that *they* too have a responsibility is somehow wrong...this is hypocrisy.

My daughters understand that they view the world differently than the boys that are starting to show interest in them, and they need to be guarded and chaste. Someday they will know that if they go to a party and choose to get drunk, that they will be making themselves more vunerable - and that while it is not their intent, it will certainly make it easier for them to become victimized -- because these are common sense precautions.

If I had a male child, I would teach him to respect women, and I'd teach him *exactly* how hellish his life would become if he *ever* choose to participate in such activities.

Beyond educating my children - what would you have me do?

I have no problem with bashing the jokesters and those who encourage them as promoting rape. I have no problem with putting anyone who covers up the rape in jail and labeling them as a sex offender along with the racists. But when you tell people that extoling the virtues of precaution and self awareness contributes to the problem, then you may as well tell anyone who says "don't go to X street in Y zone, that's the drug dealer zone and you might get killed" that they are part of the drug culture or the gang culture.. Get real. Extolling self-awareness as to where you are going and what you do when you get there (like getting so shit faced you wouldn't know you don't even rmember being victimized) is not blaming the victim. It is telling them to use some common sense and not put themselves in the situation to begin with.

I don't blame the person who gets caught in the crossfire of a gang turf war, but I will still tell others to see their death as a cautionary tale of why they shouldn't go to those parts of town. I would never blame a victim of rape when she was drunk, but I would use her victimization as a precautionary tale to help other women avoid becoming potential victims.

Lots of very good points here. But 2WL, when you say, "There's no such thing as a 'rape culture,' only a culture that blames the victims or covers up crimes because of power," I think that's EXACTLY what is meant by "rape culture."

Nobody here condones rape. But in the society we live, there is a strange degree of ambivalence, even amongst our comments here. Now, we've all been down this road to some degree before, but the prevailing theme among many of you here seems to be that she should take actions to defend herself, i.e. that it's ultimately a woman's responsibility to ensure she avoids situations where rape is more likely. Now to a degree, I agree with that. On the other hand, I think that is also what is meant by "rape culture." As if it was some how "her fault," because she got drunk and passed out. Now I know that's not what you guys mean - nobody here is *blaming* the woman, but the logic some of you are asserting is placing the obligation for rape avoidance in the woman's hand only. And that's what they mean by "rape culture."

The people who are ascribing to this thought are the people who say, you know what, a woman SHOULD be able to pass out at a party and not have to worry about being raped. A woman shouldn't have to carry a gun or mace at night to defend herself. Now, I personally, agree with you all - that until society can improve to the point where self-defense is no longer necessary, of course a women should probably take reasonable steps in line with the level of risk.

However, that does nothing at all to address the problem in our society. Whether you agree or not with the term "rape culture" I think we can all agree that educating women on avoidance and/or self-defense is not the only thing that we should be doing about this. Right?

Krellin: good move on switching to *asterisks*. The illegible rants are much more friendly to the eye without CAPS. ;-)

You *can* teach an old fart new tricks...

"that it's ultimately a woman's responsibility to ensure she avoids situations where rape is more likely"

I certainly said nothing of the sort! My point is exactly in line with yours. Send in the cops in rape. Send in the cops for threats. Even send in cops for slander. No negotiation. Raise your kids of whatever gender to protect themselves and respect others. Period. Case closed.

Now what I object to is blaming people for blaming people, and fuzzying up my above rant against rape-condoners by weak-ass reasoning about culture. Fuck culture. These people are breaking the law, they need to be prosecuted. Don't distract me from hating their asses by making some post-modern assessment on 'culture'. Let's just join hands and prosecute.

@YJ - There is no assuring anyone they won't become the victim of a violent crime, but espousing the concept of avoiding situation that will increase one's risk does not revictimize the victims. If anything, it lets them know that we have learned from their tragedy and that hopefully maybe just one other person can avoid the same tragedy.

Rape is not some special circumstance any more than murder or violent muggings or robbery. I lock my doors at night. I monitor my surroundings when I walk to my car if I get out of work late.

Now, she would be saying "she asked for it with what she was wearing"? Fuck no! She can wear whatever she likes. But she we teach our daughters "Think about what you wear and where you go"? Fuck yeah! It's called self awareness. Better to self-restrict than find yourself a victim of a violent crime.

I can carry as much money in my wallet and flash credit cards all I want. But I don't because I know that just increases the criminal elements' awareness of me so I eschew flashy clothes and bling when I go to the mall. I shop in blue jeans and t-shirt or sweatshirt on the weekends.

That should have be "should we be saying" and "should we teach our daughters".

Draug and I seem to need more profanity than usual for this argument. :-)

And nobody says it is the only thing we should do. (Well maybe some assholes do, but most here are extolling the virtues, not limiting the responsibility to *just* teaching). Remember, we as a society and individuals are quite capable of doing many things at once. Saying "we should educate them to be self-aware" does not preclude prosecuting those mother fuckers who rape or who cover it up.

@TMoW - I served my time in the MArine Corps and I'm a rpogrammer. Profanity is a second language to me. I speak profanity and code C# better than I speak English.

Soldier enters the battlefield. There are known enemy snipers in the area. Most of the soldiers keep under cover, but Joe stands and in the middle of the street and lights a cigarette.

Joe did not pull the trigger which sent the bullet through his brain, but can we admit that Joe is at least partially responsible for making himself a target in an area where there is a known danger.

If we truly live in a "rape culture" and known danger is prevalent, then how do you *not* teach people when and where to be on guard, when an where to take cover (or put some on) instead of standing in the bulls-eye?

Oh, but my typing is really failing today for me. Then so are my eyes for some reason.

As opposed to saying, "Nothing you do makes you any more of a target...Go stand in the middle of the street, Joe....where the shortest skirt possible and undo just one more button on that blouse as you do tequila shots..."