God works in mysterious ways. You just have to trust in 'him', have faith, cuz if you don't then the whole belief system kinda falls apart.

Fuck that.

Good question, Jamiet99uk. Part of the reason I believe is so I can go to Heaven and ask these tough questions to God directly. It sounds dumb but it's true.

£ScarlettJohanssenPopcorn

Sorry 2WL = what?

@Jamie - First of all, my condolences for your illness. Undoubtedly, that must be extremely unpleasant and it very much makes sense why as a result of such an illness you would ask a question like this. Anyone who believes in a benevolent God cannot adequately begin to pose answers to questions like these without understanding the inherent force, both rational and intuitive, behind such questions.

I think that the normal Christian response to your question, "Why did God design a world in which humans get unpleasant diseases through no fault of their own?" will have two points, both of which challenge assumptions made by the question itself. Again, I am not doubting the validity of the question, but the question assumes two things that, the Christian believes are not true.

The first assumption is that the original design of God for this world involved humans contracting horrible, debilitating diseases. But, a Christian understanding of God's creation views all that God created as good, and it is commonly understood that, because humans do not die in God's world until after the Fall of Adam and Eve, that disease as such was not originally a part of God's design for the world. Essentially, all death and disease is a *corruption* of God's originally good creation, not a part of it. Disease is the result of the Fall. Christians generally believe that the Fall does not merely encompass humans, but the natural world as well. Thus, disease and death entered the world as a result of man's disobedience to God. So, disease exists because of man's sinfulness, and is not a *necessary* part of God's originally good creation.

The second assumption is that nowadays humans are generally innocent and that bad things happen to them through no fault of their own. The Christian understanding of the world sees all human beings as inherently sinful and in rebellion against God, that is, we are still living in the world which is fallen, and which includes disease and death. Thus, it would be wrong to say that anyone contracts disease through no fault of their own. Please don't hear me saying this as justifying that you have such an uncomfortable condition, because from a human perspective I cannot and do not want to. But to ask the question of God is much different, and the general Christian consensus would say that there is no such thing as pain which one does not deserve.

But, no one wants to say that God inflicts disease merely because it is a just punishment for human sinfulness. We want to say that God can bring good things even out of bad things like pain, that even though pain and disease were not created by him, he has dominion over them precisely because he is God. I don't know you or your situation, so I can't speak to particular things in your life, but I think one good thing at least is that you have been led to ask a question like this. Pain is oftentimes a serious motivating factor in one's movement towards God. Again, I am not trying to make intelligible or justify your pain, because to do that from my human perspective would be impossible. But these are the things that many people who believe in a good God will say about pain and disease, and I think there is something right about them.

Sorry if this was too long, and I especially hope it doesn't belittle your experience. That's the last thing I want to do. I hope this helps answer what you asked.

@ rallinator:

Thanks for your considered response, but two problems:

1. If god was omniscient he would have known, at the point of designing Adam and Eve, that the Fall would happen, no?

2. Why the fuck am I responsible for something Adam and Eve (if they even existed) did wrong thousands of years ago? I wasn't alive when the Fall happened (if it did) so why the fuck is god punishing me for it?

@Jamie - No problem, and again these are both important questions.

"1. If god was omniscient he would have known, at the point of designing Adam and Eve, that the Fall would happen, no?"

This question could be construed as delving into serious philosophical problems along the nature of God's omniscience and the problem of free will. Skipping all that, I think the answer to this question is Yes, God did know that the fall would happen. Now, on this point a good number of Christians will disagree with me, and they will continue on to make those philosophical points about free will. I choose to answer the question theologically, by saying that the Fall was necessary for God to achieve his ultimate purpose in the creation of man. Certainly, *if* God is omnipotent, then he *could* have made it such that Adam and Eve did not fall, and that they and their descendants would have lived for eternity with God in innocence.

But God did not do this. So he must have had something better in store. The entire narrative of the Bible climaxes with the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, which is, as it were, the solution to the Fall. Christians believe that Jesus' death enables human beings to live in true and perfect relationship with God in heaven for eternity. And that scenario is actually better than if the Fall had never happened, because in this case God has redeemed his own creation from themselves, and in so doing has allowed for the exercise of free will and all that. Long story short, I think that the Fall was necessary for God's ultimate plan of salvation and redemption to be accomplished.

"2. Why the fuck am I responsible for something Adam and Eve (if they even existed) did wrong thousands of years ago? I wasn't alive when the Fall happened (if it did) so why the fuck is god punishing me for it?"

Generally, and again, I am not trying to sound harsh or mean, I am just saying what Christians believe about people, God does not hold you accountable for what Adam and Eve did, that would be very morally problematic. He holds you to account for what you do. And again, I don't think, and Christians don't think, that God is punishing you with this disease. As I said above, I firmly believe that precisely because of God's omnipotence and omniscience, he can bring good even out of evil which he did not create. So, I don't think that God is necessarily punishing you at all. The point is that it is not *per se* unjust or anti-benevolent for God to allow disease and pain, because by default all humans are guilty before God and deserve death.

This is so not because of what Adam and Eve did (directly) but because of what you (and all of us) do. We all fall short of the standards which God justly demands for us as his creatures, i.e. perfection. If you are perfect, then yes, God has no right to inflict you with disease. But if you are not, then at the very least such disease is not undeserved. Again, even as I write that, I know it sounds harsh, but Christians believe that about all people. And also, as I said, although I have no desire to speak for God, I doubt that your disease is a punishment. Because God is good, he does not want to punish us, he wants to draw us to himself. And very often, and I know this from experience, we only draw near to God or find our need for God, when we realize our own brokenness and helplessness.

Jamie - the *honest* Christian answer is that the original man *was* designed perfectly, and he was provided with one very simple rule: Obey me...in the form of, "Eat anything you want, except THAT..." and then man got all arrogant and uppity and because the "serpent" told him God was trying to keep him stupid and oppressed and he could be just as good and all knowing as God if he just ignored God and did whatever he wanted....like that fruit over there that God said to stay away from.

Adam had it all baby...paradise, perfect weather, a hot chick that wouldn't age....but it wasn't enough...in pride and arrogance he ignored God's *one* rule, God got pissed and said, "That's it....EVERYBODY OUT OF THE POOL!"

Yeah, not just the jackass with the apple core in his hand, but the whole lot of humanity (and I'm assuming by now Adam and his babe had already procreated, and Eden was getting kind of full anyway....that's why when they were the last to turn out the lights when Big-G threw 'em out and they finished mopping the locker room, they found cities and pissed off people already in the world...but that's another story..."

Anyway, God was *so* pissed, because, like he gave his favorite creation *everything* they could have wanted....including free thought, and the ability to choose their actions (unlike the angels who are bound to obey...well, except for Satan...but that's another story...). Why? Because all the Angels do is sit around and do what they are told and they sing songs and play harps and it's like a big old love fest up there in heaven with all those angels....except, one day God realized that, "Dang....they just sound so *flat*...you know...?" he asked to his two other selves, who, being Him, said, "Yeah...they got no pizazz to their song..." and the the GJ (God Jesus) said, "I know how to put a little jazz in their jive...let's create someone that *wants* to sing to us...instead of all these, forgive me Godfather, robotish angels who only sing because they have to..."

So the Godfather creates man and laid down a set of tunes for him to sing *if* he wanted to sing them, and promised him eternity and perfection if only he would just, you know, stay off the grass...well, I take liberty there....I mean he said, "Leave the apples alone" or whatever the tree of the knowledge of good and evil grew.

Man ignored God, and blew the whole gig. As a result, God said, "Out of the pool....AND, because, like, I'm *really* pissed and I'm still giving you this whole world to roam about in, I'm going to make it miserable for the duration of your stay. So, like you are going to get sick, and it's going to hurt like a bitch when women have kids, and the earth is going to fight you with thorns and disease...you are going to be *miserable* for you....now here's where you can stop your bitching...for your *really* short life span. Yeah....that's right, puny man-that-wants-to-be-god...that eternity thing is off. I'll start you off with a thousand years of so...and it's gonna suck...but eventually I'll knock yo off at about 80...and it'll still suck. And while you suffer...some of you are gonna remember me, and you will pray to me begging for mercy. Mostly, I'm going to ignore you and not even hear what you say because you are still just being a bunch of selfish douchebags looking for me to do tricks for you like I'm some sort of damn houseboy...but a couple of you will get it."

And his two selves nodded. "Hey...wow...all right then. Sounds like a plan, stan...er...Godfather..." because GF gave them a look....

And then GF said, "You wanna crack wise, GJ - then get a load of this...I'm gonna turn you in to one of them...."

"Whaaa......????" GJ said, speechless....

And GHS whispered in an ethereal voice, "Whoa...I'm gonna hand around invisible and watch this one play out..."

Anyway, GJ was kicked off the turntable and made to go down to earth AS GOD still...like perfect, could not sin, couldn't be a selfish bastard like the rest of humanity that he was supposed to be acting like....except unlike God, He could get hurt. Like, he bled, and when hot chick passed Him by He *totally* wanted her, and really because He was such a hip cat with all the right lines He could have had her, too...except He wasn't supposed to, so it just sucked and made Him miserable. And anyway, GF said, "I'm prety much gonna show all these chumps down here how the Godfather does it..." and He made all the people hate on GJ, who liked to hang around on Webdip and talk righteous philosophy with people. And for the most part He was all about love and kindness an all that, except He pisssed off a couple of mods, so they decided to kill Him, even though He didn't deserve it.

So, long story sort, even though everybody knew it was a bunch of bullshit, they banned GJ and basically killed off the most succesfuly webdip player ever, and even though GJ had Kestas's personal cell phone number, He didn't say anything and just took it like a man, so that He could be an example to everyone...

So anyway, you suffer because evryhone before you was a dick, starting with Adam, and you should just be happy witht he life you have, because you could be dead.

And anyway, if you just follow GJ and don't bitch, and believe that the Godfather has a righteous pizza waiting for you in the *real* eternity if you just play along and get along, then when you shed your earthly flesh, you can live in heaven for eternity with the Godfather and your pain will be gone...and while you are hear on this earth, you know, GJ had a lousy time of it, but he never called Kestas and complained, because He was looking at the *big picture*....the real eternity.

You gotta shit in a bag...which totally totally sucks. I get it. Some people don't know where their next meal is coming from. Some people have had all their limbs blown off and their eyes burned out in a war they never asked for. There are worse fates.

I know...shitty answer...but it's the best I can give you, bro. Hope it helps.

"If you are perfect, then yes, God has no right to inflict you with disease. But if you are not, then at the very least such disease is not undeserved. "

What a vile and despicable belief system. God is never to blame, everybody else is. God doesn't manage to do anything, but somehow we're to believe he's both allpowerful and all good. Bullshit.

The solution to the problem is one of the following:

1) God exists, and is evil. Not only evil but vindictive and petty.
2) God exists, but is too weak to be relevant.
3) God doesn't exist. Belief in god is the result of humans being vindictive & weak.

With regards to mankinds fall, if you believe in Adam amd Eve as literal (I don't) then there would be no mankind because the fall resulted in woman giving birth and man having to work.to make ends meet and serpents with no legs. So no snakes and no kids. The first recorded children are Cain and Abel *after* being kicked out of Eden.

But of course if you don't prescribe to the literal creation story then that matters much less. The realbtruth is we become inflicted to test us (the parables of Job and of Jonah provide this evidence) are given to provide us with the opportunity to choose between selfish moaning and trusting in Him.

Oh and I am truly sorry for your suffering. In no way was I trying to imply your are selfish. I was only providing contrast between the flesh and the spirit - trust in God versus separation because of self.

So far I've heard a lot of heaping of blame on people with diseases on people with diseases, in order to rationalize god's existence. Who is being selfish? Obvious it's not the god who is deciding to do jackall about all the gratuitous suffering in the world (unless you grovel before this megalomaniac like a slave), it's the person daring to complain about the unfair predicament.

Epicurus says it best:
"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?"

As David Bowie's Witch King said in Labyrinth... "Not fair? I wonder what your basis for comparison is."

And I heaped no blame on anyone. It is a test of patience and trust. Nothing more. Without suffering, there could be no death and without death there would be no after life nor would life be as precious as it is. Contrasts like that mean one *cannot* edist without the other. We would never know amd appreciate true joy without sorrow and suffering. We could never understand good without some evil. Heaven would not be conceived of in a perfect world because we would already be there. So, jist as one must breakdown their muscles to build them back stronger, so must we be tested to strengthen and build our faith. No one would ever come to God if they weren't granted the opportunity and only through our hardships can we see the opportunity to call upon Him and ask for His help and guidance and comfort. Yeah though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, thou art with me. Thy rod and thy staff comfort me.

You called someone lamenting their suffering "selfish". That is blame.

Gratuitous suffering inflicted so that people will believe in god? Sadism. Pure sadism. What about suffering inflicted upon small children? Small children cannot even conceive of a god as stupid and illogical as 'god'. Why make them suffer? And why must the suffering be so horrible? Why can't it be the minimum amount of suffering in order to make this sadistic 'point'?

replace god with concept

No, I did *not*. I referred to lamentation as an act of self (i.e. selfish) and immediately clarified it but in typical putin fashion you couldn't be bothered to actually read it in context and had to put your self aerving twist on it. Typical putin. Done talking to you now. Will stick to honestly trying to answer Jamie's question and ignore your billshit from this point forward.

Draug, Putin's right. Any attempt to justify God in this context will come off as assholish, whether you intend it to or not. Just offer your condolences to Jamie (by the way Jamie, that really sucks, I'm sorry) and say that God works in mysterious ways that none of us can understand.

Jamie - ghug is not giving you the believer's answer, so ignore him.

IF you believe in God, then your so-called suffering (I don't mean to diminish, I mean to enlight as to the greater picture) is meaningless int he light of the concept of eternal perfection offered by salvation, and the resurrection from your corrupt body into the perfect body you achieve in heaven.

Keep in mind that even if you did not have your particular malady, you by no means would be perfect on this earth, as there is *no* human being that is perfect...we are *all* decaying to death - living in an imperfect body. That we play games with ourselves and say "this is better than that" is, well, silly. In a hundred years, everyone on this thread will be dead, and our current suffering meaningless.

The concept of God, salvation, eternity is that, at that point a hundred years from now, if there is the slimmest chance that life goes on in some form....hedge your bet, believe in the Big G and live eternal perfection with Him in paradise. Of course, you are supposed to believe for less pragmatic reasons than I just explained. That being said, the Bible also discusses the very direct topic that "faith" -- i.e. what we use to believe in God and obtain salvation -- is a "measurable" thing. Some people have more faith than others, and it is, in fact, something which you can request *more* of. That is, God pretty much understands that the selfish cretins that He created are going to have a really tough time believing in Him once He set them free to do as they pleased in this rotten world...so, once hyou come to the point where you say, "Hmmmm....maybe....*just maybe* there is something to that idea...that God..." then you might have that infinitesimal bit of faith that God will credit you with as "belief"...and from that point you can work to grow it, and He can grow it with you. And getting that first infinitesimal bit of faith needed for God to count it can, in fact, be a rational decision that you make one day...maybe even now...

And why would you make that decision? Because God, who set up this rotten suffering mess, sent Himself to suffer through His own creation, to get spit upon, to get beaten and brutalized in what was, if not the most aweful, a pretty damend horrible way to die not because He did anything wrong, but just because He wanted to sympathize...and He wanted to say, "Listen...I went through this crap with you...I came down - didn't have to - I could have called a legion of brain-dead angels to wipe you all out and set me up as Benevolent Dictator Forever...but I didn't...I died, humble and pathetic, so that you would get that I care...so, you know...just believe that I'm not as bad as some want to make me out to be, and with that...WITH THAT simple admission...that I, God, am not such a bad egg after all even though I put you in a rotten place....well, it sucks, but I gave you a **really*** easy escape plan that will make you minute suffering here pale in comparison to *eternity* (which is a really long time, I know, because I'm existing in it already...)....so, you know...that's the deal and it's not such a bad deal..."

So...you know...there's the plan, man.

The Book of Job actually does not give an answer. There is no answer to the Problem of Evil & Pain. It's the ultimate religious question--many have tried to answer it, and the answers heretofore given are representative. Sometimes those answers are helpful. But in the end, it comes down to this: Reality is what It is. We can fight against Reality, or we can accept it and submit to it cheerfully.

You can substitute "God" for "Reality" in those statements, if you are a believer. But framing it this way, IMO, helps those who not so inclined.

Ghug - Jamie asked a specific question. I answered it. He didn't ask for lame ass excuses. He said he wanted a sincere truth. The fact that you and putin can't handle the truth in no way diminishes my belief in why God allows suffering. The fact is you'd rather me wimp out and act like a mindless lemming than show I have a brain and have contemplated this question quite recently when my wife and mother were both in the hospital on Thanksgiving scares you.

No, Draug, I'm glad to hear your opinion. If you have a legitimate explanation for the hole that Jamie is poking in your belief system, then please go ahead and explain it.

If, on the other hand, you're going to accuse someone of "selfish moaning" in the face of a horrible illness because he doesn't share your beliefs and chose to ask you a question in the hopes of further understanding, I will not give any thought to what you have to say, because it comes from a closed-minded, selfish, and emotionless frame of mind.

Same twisted interpretation of a statement I already clarified *immediately*. You and Putin are cut from the same burlap sack. Ignoring you too now ghug.

ghug, Epicurus' statement is fallacious, however appealing, and however often quoted in late-night frat house discussions.

To see why, just consider the same reasoning in the context of parenting. Parents, of course, are much more limited beings, but sometimes they choose to allow their children to make mistakes that will cause them pain in order to get long-term benefits.

For example, if you teach a kid to ride a bike, he is almost certainly going to fall, scrape his knees, and quite probably end up howling in pain multiple times. So I ask you: is the parent desirous of preventing this, but unable? Then the parent is weak. Is the parent able to prevent this, but not willing? Then the parent is malevolent. Is he both able and willing to prevent it? Then why is the kid hurting himself? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why respect him as a parent?

The point, you'll notice, is that none of these instances actually quite describes the case. Well, the actual fact is that the parent is able but unwilling to prevent the pain, but it's not because he's malevolent. It's because he knows that a good can be obtained for the child that way that is greater than the good of just not being hurt.

More frat-house Greek philosophy gone down the tubes. Sad.

Jamie, I'm very sorry for your condition. And frankly, I'm also sorry for my flippant dismissal of the problem of evil question you raised in the other thread. It's easy among young people in western society to get used to everything going so well, or approximately so well, that these questions are seen as attempted logical "gotchas" (which they often are), and to forget that everybody really does suffer sometimes, and some people suffer a lot all the time, and that perhaps no question is so from-the-heart as this one sometimes is. I apologize.

There have been some very strong answers on this thread. I dare say you might not like them -- that I can't know -- but they are honest. I agree that the book of Job is probably the central text on this question. It both does and doesn't offer an answer. It ultimately doesn't tell us why God allows suffering and evil; but it does tell us that He has a reason, that it's a good one, and that we need to trust Him -- to trust Him for that just as we trust His creation around us to work to the extent that we do. We can speculate about the reasons, of course, and I think it's even helpful to do so, but we can probably never fully know or understand them.

(I also really liked the recent film, "The Tree of Life," which was largely inspired by Job, and which won the Palm d'Or. "A Grief Observed" is a more modern, interesting book about extreme pain and trying to work through what it means. It was written by CS Lewis when his wife died of cancer.).

I think it is this issue more than most that requires faith. It is not hard to believe God exists. What requires faith, sometimes in the seeming emotional dark, is to believe that He cares and that His plan will result in our greatest imaginable welfare and happiness. This is not so dissimilar from the trust a child sometimes has to have in a parent, only it is both harder and more well-founded.

krellin's discussion in his later post of God's salvation and His sign of good faith was, frankly, eloquent (which is not something I expect to say often of anything krellin says on religion). Christ became man and suffered horribly physically, emotionally, and spiritually, that our suffering might end. It is this substantive sign of God's love that is at the center of the Christian religion. Christ shared in and exceeded our suffering to take the punishment for our sins. This He offers as a gift to those who trust in Him.

So to say God doesn't care about suffering, someone would have to look at Jesus, at the misery and suffering He went through, and tell him to His face that He went through it to achieve an end to suffering for His people, but that He doesn't care about suffering, that He doesn't understand.

Well, I hope you find the answers have been helpful at all. Mostly I hope you find peace with God, which will entail peace generally. There will always be pain in this life. For you, I guess, a lot of it and early, and I'm sorry. One day it will end, which in some ways is I think even more troubling. But peace even through suffering can be attained, and eternity lies beyond yet to be determined. Godspeed.

And that's why I'm the one resorting to ad hominem attacks when people make good points that don't agree with my arguments... oh wait.

Draug, you used the term "selfish moaning," I don't care what the hell you meant by it (I'm pretty sure it's not what you're claiming now), you're still accusing someone with a serious medical condition of "selfish moaning" because he doesn't believe in and revere your supposedly all-powerful and all-good God. That is not OK, and there is no valid justification for it. Jamie approached the community openly, asking people to explain their beliefs to him in a civilized manner, as he is having a personal crisis. Most people, even *krellin*, did their best to express their beliefs in an openly friendly way, but you instead asserted yours as fact and insulted the person who asked for your opinion. Well done.

"Parents, of course, are much more limited beings, but sometimes they choose to allow their children to make mistakes that will cause them pain in order to get long-term benefits."

What on earth is the "long-term benefit" of painful/humiliating debilitating diseases?

It seems like Semck is just going to declare an argument fallacious without actually showing how it is so, but rather making absolutely mind bogglingly stupid argument in response. The comparison with "bike riding" is particularly outrageous. Collitis is not the fucking equivalent of getting your knee scraped. There is no skill being learned here like riding a bike. There is no "lesson" being learned here. It's just pointless suffering, period.

Show me what the lesson/skill being learned here is that Jamie is gaining through his suffering. Otherwise you fail.

"So to say God doesn't care about suffering, someone would have to look at Jesus, at the misery and suffering He went through, and tell him to His face that He went through it to achieve an end to suffering for His people, but that He doesn't care about suffering, that He doesn't understand."

Jesus (if such a person even existed, the evidence is really poor) by his own followers accounts died extraordinarily early for a crucifixion, which usually takes days. He died within hours which was surprising to the Romans. I dare say the revolutionaries being crucified along with him suffered much more than he.

And why the hell is Epicurus "frat boy philosophy"? No frat boy I know of ever quoted Epicurus. I do know many who quote "Jesus", though.

Ghug. Read my post immediately following. I realized it read wrong and clarified. Can't do that? Then you are wasting my time and can quite honestly go pound sand up your ass.