I'm not really looking for live games, more of just normal games where people can talk and plan with each other, and create alliances rather than being isolated and trying to figure out what other people are doing.

1) I don't understand why you list WTA games in your OP. What does that have to do with messaging?

2) If you want to start a game, I suggest you advertise it on the Forum. That's usually the best way to get one started.

Winner takes all has nothing to do with press. In fact, most of the top players here feel WTA is closest to the boardgame because you don't get players trying for strong second. But the best games here are usually private games set up here on the forum. You can find some.great WTA or PPSC full press games set up here all the time.

Its because he doesn't understand how WTA works.

Game in point: gameID=116217

1/10 would not play with again

I understand how WTA games work. I'm sorry I didn't feel like I wanted to do a WTA in the game I was in with you 2ndWhiteLine, and I understand that a lot of people on here likes WTA and I don't mind that, I just sort of through that in. I'm only looking for peoples views on the situation. Not to be criticized at my opinion.

In general, people in WTA games get quite mad when you don't play with a WTA mindset in them. Of course, that only matters in the end-game if you live that long.

We still have lots of good PPSC players around here though, so you'll find those games here and there. Most forum regulars are in the WTA club though.

@goldfinger - Since most forum regulars prefer WTA, why is PPSC the default? I know that I have to change it every time I make a game. What is the split between PPSC and WTA games? And would the numbers be different with a different default?

Most people aren't the site aren't forum regulars though. If you go through games and exclude gunboat, you'll find a slight majority in favor of PPSC games, actually.

@goldfinger: I suspect that since some players don't pay much attention to the settings when creating games, you'd probably have a majority of games using whatever setting was default if it's pretty close.

That's my thought. If the default is WTA, would that tip the scales? If so, I would love to see the default changed. Instead of changing to a "harder" setting, the option would be to go to an "easier" setting.

@mastermuse - ''aren't that many normal games anymore'' Could you please tell me how intentionally losing a game to gain more points than getting a tie for first is normal.

@Mintyboy4 - I don't mean it like that. once again I made this thread so people could give input, not for me to be ridiculed. But normal, I mean classic games, with messaging allowed, anon, and points per supply center. I don't know if you would count this as normal but I do, that's how we play it at my school in different classes. And Minty, there are people out there who do have to leave games now and then (including me) for certain reasons they can not change. But you are bringing out the bad point, I believe if you try hard, and actually try to win and come in a close second, then you should be rewarded for playing. Winner-takes-all is just a way for more advanced players to take points from people who are newer to the game. I don't care that some people like that way, I leave them alone, and let them play it. And people who intentionally lose a game, will most likely not even get any points if they lose the game. Everybody deserves some sort of score/reward in my prize, I believe in 1st, 2nd, 3rd (no matter how many places) rather than 1st and "everyone else who played and lost"

If you want to play one, make one. Problem solved.

I have been.

Here's what the argument boils down to, mastermuse. Some players on this site argue that having a PPSC approach rewards effort, which is essentially what you argue. A player might not win a game, but they will be rewarded with points based on their performance. This encourages players to forgo playing for the win in order to play for a strong second to get points.

There are two issues with this approach. First, and foremost, is that our standard of measurement on this site, Ghost Rating, punishes losses and rewards wins and draws, depending on who else is in the game. A draw against good players is potentially better for your rating than beating bad players. When a player in a PPSC plays for a strong second for points, and someone else wins, it still counts as a "survived", which is the same as a loss in your rating. Essentially, if you want to be regarded as a quality player, your GR is what matters, as opposed to the number of points you have. PPSC proponents generally do not care about this rating; hence, the irreparable difference of opinion.

The second point has to do with the quality of the game itself. Most of the better players on this site would argue that if you cannot win, you should do your best to prevent others from winning. WTA encourages players to play for the win, but if a win isn't possible, it encourages players to work together to prevent the win; otherwise, they get nothing for their effort. This is more reflective of real life and real diplomacy. Sometimes, you win, but most times, you are forced to compromise for the greater good of the players involved.

You can make as many PPSC games as you like, and you might end up having fun, but the bottom line is if you want to play a quality game against quality opponents, you're better off playing WTA. Most of the top players on webdiplomacy will exclusively play WTA for the reasons I listed above. If you want to learn the game and get better as a player, WTA is the way to go. I would encourage keeping an eye out for games being set up on the forum, or set one up yourself on the forum if you like. This minimizes the risk of multis or CDs from random players during the game.

Calling a Diplomacy game in this site normal is likely to get you in trouble. The closest this site can come truly to a normal game is 20min phase, non anon WTA..

As has been said, your best bet is to just make a thread stating what type of game you want and asking who's interested

1) I'm not trying to tick people off, and turn this thread into an arguement. I believe people should be rewarded for effort and I believe that in real life. If your king of a country and you don't become the strongest power, you don't get everything taken away from you, and I don't know many people who "play to get second place."

2) I don't mind when people draw, I think it's good when people draw and I almost always try to set up an alliance with someone to end in a draw so we can both get points, but the problem with that is you need messaging allowed (back to my first point about not many games with messaging allowed), and second of all, when I set up for a draw, or I see two other people do it, There is almost always a time when someone backstabs the other person and goes for a solo win at the last minute (hence, an easy way to get all the points in winner-takes-all for letting people trust you, a reason why this has become such a bakstabbing game) .

3) And finally, It seems that when people are forced to compromise for the greater good, someone always gets backstabbed (back to my second point) and someone jumps for a solo, and I do believe this can be like real life and ral diplomacy, but lastly. It's a game, and it's a game that teaches you strategy.

I've tried to just make this a thread where people can just post their views and what they like/don't like about basic games, but obviously people have taken it th wrong way and they just want to make me look like i'm some idiot who doesn't know what I'm saying. That's wrong. This is a thread not an arguement topic.

I think you're being a little defensive. We are giving our opinions, as you asked.

Not only are you being defensive, you don't understand the game well enough to make your argument even resemble something well-reasoned. Obviously there are stabs in Diplomacy, but to address your second point, if a stalemate is set up properly, there's no danger of someone "jumping for a solo" because the other players make it impossible. Players would rather get something than nothing. A smart player will realize when a solo is impossible and instead work to prevent another player who looks like a solo threat. You don't need messaging to accomplish this, just ask anybody on this site who plays gunboat, myself included.

@2WL: Actually, GR accounts for PPSC games differently than it accounts for WTA games. A PPSC second place in GR is a valuable result.

Even more reason why you can't have a good PPSC game. Encourages a strong second even more. I didn't realize that though, thanks for the correction.

I know i'm a little defensive. I will admit that. I'm not a person who likes to argue but I stand up for what I want and believe in. And @2ndWhiteLine I do understand the game, i've been playing it with my friends in school for 2/3 years now aswell as through tons of people over email. And I gunboat can be an interesting game only when neccesary. But I like to play with reward no matter how bad I did, and I know I can't be alone on that. And I worked in one game to set up a stalemate with two others and what happened? One friend backstabbed the other (I forget when this game took place and with who but it was before I joined Webdiplomacy.net). I lend my trust to my "ally"'s on this game, but throughout games there have been more and more backstabbing. Which sort of takes away the stalemate option, for people who honestly try to set up a stalemate.

Well there's your problem. You trust people ;).

@2ndWhiteLine I'm a trusting person and I honestly try to set up stalemates and draws with people through messaging and talking with them, but get backstabbed. But then the few times I decide to backstab someone who looks like they're about to turn on me, everybody gets pissed at me and I end up with everyone deciding to go againest me.

Please don't take this the wrong way, but it appears you just need to get better at the game.

If you are constantly getting backstabbed and are unable to successfully backstab yourself, that is a failing on your part, not the game.

If you are searching for good game, than you should join one of the tournaments...league, masters..they are all good. Personally I do not like PPSC game because they award playing for second place, but still there is good PPSC games on this site as well. Besides tournaments that require longer commitment, the easiest way to find a good game is to advertise on the forum...this site has large amount of quality players and always will be few of them up to he challenge.

Points make what we play here a variant. Doesn't matter whether it be PPSC or WTA, but WTA is closer to the essence of the real game where there is only one winner and everyone else is a loser. So PPSC is less normal than WTA. As far as full press games, there are plenty of them unless you want live.