philcore, I appreciate the reminder, but I didn't say "most racist comment", but "one of the most racist comments". And also, I think we all know better than to take Mapleleaf seriously about anything.

I am absolutely for an AA programme which addresses the issue of income inequality and the associated access to a decent education. In the UK we once had the semblance of just such a programme with our grammar schools. In response the ''powers that be'' kicked the ladder away thereby preserving the future for their, largely privately educated, kids by eliminating the competition.

@ Fulhamish

It always amazes me how much the country varies from region to region. In conservative South Devon the grammar school system is alive and well. Always has been. I agree that it's a great system, but I wouldn't call it AA. No one is given special treatment. You pass the 11+ or you don't

I am completely for an AA program in the states that is fair and equitable as well. Problem is, AA here is about punishing white kids for crimes commited since before I (a 47 year old) was born. It doesn't affect me any more at this point in my life and I don't have kids so the "white privilege" line is a lame ass excuse to try and say "he wants his (non existent) kids to get their heritage". I just want true equality. An AA that gave a heads up to minorities in cases where all other things were equal is a good thing. An AA that gives mintorities a heads up when they have a substandard skill/academic record is a bad thing. Especially as society *is* becoming more integrated and white kids coming out of the same school district as black or latino or asian kids get discriminated against despite sitting in the same classrooms with the same teachers.

Educational AA (college acceptance) needs to be about economic/social equality so that students from poorer areas do get that heads up opportunity denied them by a poorer education in grade school (we also need to reform education so *everyone* gets a solid education in public schools which currently doesn't happen) and business/employment AA needs to be revised to be about true equality, only giving minority businesses a heads up if they can meet the same requirements and estimates as the non-minority owned business or applicant.

If we could get the public education system (without teaching to a fucking test) to be a solid system in every school so that rich districts didn't have some huge advantage, then AA in the college admissions process could be converetd to something similar to the business one I propose. But as it stands, America's AA system is about discrimination *against* whitey. It isn't about true equality by accounting for socioeconomic differences in education because it uses skin color alone to make the decision, not parental income or district the student lives in and it isn't about making certain minority businesses get a fair shake because it actuially lets them provide an inferior product or service, punishing the companies who provide a superior service just because they don't have enough minority share holders.

Excellent post Draug.

Octavo us I take your point about the nationwide reintroduction of the 11 plus not being of itself a matter purely of AA. It would,

However, provide much more opportunity to the lower socio-economic groups which, given a finite number of educational opportunities, would be at the expense of those higher up the ladder.

The 11+ doesn't provide equality unless somehow you could prevent parents paying for extra tuition in the run up to the tests and then prevent children who fail from going to fee paying schools. None of which are ever going to happen so 11+ doesn't sort the gifted from the rest. Also 11+ is arbitrary in the sense that different people develop at different rates; slicing the early developers off at the expense of late developers doesn't add to equality of opportunity.

@ Maniac

I am struggling to see how your ideal of equality can possibly be a good thing. People with means will always tend to try and give their offspring advantage. This is the primary motivation for getting means in the first place. A parent could work longer hours or in a well paid job they don't enjoy as much as their ideal career to gain money to give their children an advantage. They could go to night school to brush up on their maths so they can help their child with homework and give them an advantage. To try and stop this in the name of equality is insane.

Inequality can a wonderful thing. It gives us a reason to make an effort.

I'm not suggesting for one minute that parents should be stopped from paying for private tuition or private schools. My point was that because they are allowed to do that the 11+ doesn't help select people on ability.

Maniac I don't fully disagree with your views on the11 plus, that is why I originally used the word "semblance" in qualifying its positive AA consequences. What, however, is undeniably true is that social mobility in the UK has fallen since its general abolition.