Barbies are for sociopaths with no sense of self.

Genuinely curious about your current bro obsession, Putin. But China, it must be said, has banned a lot of things that the Western World has not. An awful lot of things.

A thought occurs... are we all talking about the same barbie?

But ok for sociopaths with a high sense of self importance.

I dare say China hasn't banned things that destroy the environment at the same rate as the western world. That they are out on front on this issue should make westerners feel a bit sheepish. You will be akin to the people who laughed about public smoking bans 20 years ago.

I'm talking about Barbie the doll that teaches young kids, male and female, a ridiculous sense of beauty that has been shown time and time again not only to be impossible for most people to attain but also just generally unhealthy.

The context was protein not plastic dolls.

Then no, I'm not familiar. Care to give me an idiot's explanation?

I'm a tad confused as to what you thought TCS was talking about when he mentioned putting a peanut on the barbie...

I had only read what I saw on my home page and offered a clearly irrelevant opinion.

"the thing that really got me was that it takes eight pounds of grain to bring one pound of meat to market. That's too inefficient in a world where many people go hungry. "


Dingdingdingdingding this man gets it!!!

"If a cause of hunger was the inability to produce enough food I'd be inclined to agree, but globally this is not an issue. Hunger is a problem of politics and logistics, and changing your diet won't impact that one way or the other."

Ahhhh... this guy does not.

Sixth mass extinction Octavious. Fucking google it.

Anyway, back to the topic. I've been vegetarian for 5 years now. It's a great lifestyle choice, more power to you CA. I've recently (in the last year or so) transitioned almost fully into veganism, only the occasional egg and maybe some stray hidden ingredients in various foods are leftover.

I would say that the meat substitutes and whatnot are pretty helpful at first, like in the first 3-6 months as you find yourself thinking "okay, I've done X and Y vegetarian meals... but now I have to eat again and I just.. don't know!" Then go ahead and make yourself a fake chicken sandwich. But after awhile, I would stay away from these substitutions. They're generally pretty gnarly and processed. Still better than actual meat in terms of the processing, for the most part, but not something you want to be eating a whole lot of.

Exceptions are the more traditional protein substistutes like tofu and seitan, or tempeh. You can get really good with those and eat them often. I don't do much of that though. I've made tofu for myself maybe 3 or 4 times. It's certainly nice to get it when you eat out though.

The main thing that you should do is: think of vegetables as the main course. That's the centerpiece of the dish you make. That's the morsel of nutrition, rather than the meat. Then you basically think of a sauce and a cereal grain combination to mix that with, and eat. Legumes should also play a heavy part in your diet.

For myself, I basically have 3 types of meals. Well 4 if you count breakfast. Breakfast is oatmeal and peanut butter. Lasts you hours. The other three are:

1. Asian stir fry: rice, or noodles, or some other asian-esque grain, with maybe a peanut sauce, or just soy sauce, and a whole mess of whatever vegetables you can think of, with maybe tofu or something. The more the merrier.

2. Hummus and bread and salad. Very easy, very healthy, and tasty. More of a lunch thing.

3. Mexican: beans and rice and some kind of sauce or salsa or chips or something. Often when I'm lazy this is literally just beans, corn, and rice in a bowl with seasoning. Avocado goes a long way in this.

4. Honorable mention: nothing wrong with some italian: sauteed vegetables in pasta with some oil, some pepper, lots of seasoning, MUSHROOMS, and if you need lots of sustenance like me, be sure to add in some kind of heartier grain to the mix or a legume on the side or something.

5. Ah and one more, basically Indian seasonings with lentils or chickpeas, some steamed or boiled veggies, over a bed of grain like wild rice or quinoa.

All of what I just described tastes like heaven, is really easy, can be made in large quantities, is pretty healthy, certainly gets you all the veggies you need. Then you just eat fruit for dessert, and boom.

As far as other non-meal related concerns go: non-dairy milks are pretty good. Experiment with them. You may even come to like them better. I do.

One thing to watch out for is added sugar and too many carbs, especially at first when you're not sure what to eat. If you go to someone's barbecue and there's nothing but white bread for you to eat, well, that can't really be helped. It's always a shame. But when you're eating for yourself, be sure you eat almost entirely whole grains with a LOT of fiber. Fiber is your true friend in this game, not so much protein, not that protein doesn't matter. Fiber is what makes you healthy, keeps you full, and gives you those legendary vegetarian trips to the bathroom that, ahem, make your toilet paper last at least twice as long and makes your bathroom visits at least twice as short.

So yeah, go for it man. You'll feel good about it, especially if you're eating lots of fresh vegetable and fruit. That's the real side benefit of vegetarianism - it's almost impossible to neglect whole foods like fruit and vegetables like so many people tend to do. I think that's the real key to health in general, and especially for a vegetarian.

Side benefits include not inducing gratuitous animal suffering and bondage and taking a tangibly meaningful step toward preventing humanity from overshooting global carrying capacity.

A warning: if you are vegetarian for long enough, I would say for more than 6 months, and you decide to have some meat, only eat a tiny bit, and hopefully a little bit of good quality fish or chicken, not red meat. You will have stomach problems going back at first This is really one of the better ways to keep the initial random cravings at bay as well, just think of how much you will regret it lol. And the cravings disappear after about 6 months anyway. I haven't thought of a meat-based meal with a watering mouth in several years.

On the social side: I would recommend coming up with an inoffensive elevator speech about why you've become a vegetarian. Something vague about "efficiency of food production and dietary health" is usually what I go to. You'll learn quickly that it's in your best interest, as well as vegetarianism's best interest, to keep these conversations polite and short. If you get the vibe that the person is asking because they want to become a vegetarian, then you can go into some more detail. But always take pains not to look "judgmental." Meat-eaters get very very defensive just because of your presence at a meal, sometimes. Some people may, without any verbal prompting from you, feel the need to make stupid jokes about how good bacon tastes or whatever. Just don't respond, just kind of smile or whatever and move the conversation along toward something else. This is something else you get used to, and also the people who know you will get used to you being vegetarian too and will eventually stop talking to you about it so much. Thank God lol.

Barbie as in barbeque, as in using charcoal extracted from slow growth forests and pumping the air with pollution on hot summer days, creating meat products with higher than normal carcinogens.

Oh, sure. Sounds Australian.

As a side issue, and you Vegans can step back and look smug at this point, without a beef industry you will not have a dairy industry.

As for the eight pounds of grain argument, try growing grain on a Welsh hillside.

"As for the eight pounds of grain argument, try growing grain on a Welsh hillside."

How about growing nothing on the Welsh hillside and letting wildlife return? Fucking mental, I know

Subsistence is dead, Thucy.

What I have always wondered about is how the vegetarians who avoid meat from the perspective of not wishing to kill animals never seem particularly concerned by the countless numbers of mice and rats et al slaughtered to protect grain stores and the like.

Also, serious question. Do vegetarians produce more methane than non vegetarians?

Subsistence is dead?

Lmfao, I supposed you have transcended the need to eat food raised on the land, then. Please do tell us your secret.

"What I have always wondered about is how the vegetarians who avoid meat from the perspective of not wishing to kill animals never seem particularly concerned by the countless numbers of mice and rats et al slaughtered to protect grain stores and the like."

I'm pretty sure that those who are aware of it like myself would tell you that they do care, but this is where this pretty disingenuous criticism of vegetarianism breaks down. Vegetarians are voluntary extinctionists. They recognize the right of human beings to make a living on this planet just as they recognize it for a snake or a spider or a sheep. Which means they are only going to put as much strain on the environment, only going to outcompete as many animals and plants as they have to. See my reply in the other thread, but make sure you have your pearls first so you can be sure to clutch them as you read lol

aren't voluntary extinctionists* lol

@Octavious ... cows, slaughterhouses, and big rigs produce more methane than no cows, no slaughterhouses, and no big rigs, so I think the answer is pretty clear.

"I supposed you have transcended the need to eat food raised on the land, then."

No, quite the opposite. I have spent months in shelters I rebuild once a week because they get knocked down by wind gusts foraging for and catching my own food. I get it. But you come on here time and time again and preach all of these alternatives that are absolutely awesome but are so far beyond impractical that I just don't see how you expect 300 million people in the United States or 8 billion people around the world to follow suit.

My wife is perfectly happy having a smoothie for breakfast made from a combination of fresh and frozen berries. I worry about the sugar content. I wouldn't want to drink a big thing of juice, but know that the fruits themselves are good because of the fiber. It seems like there is no consensus one side treat them as a sugary drink and the other treats them a suitable meal. Any thoughts?

Here's the thing bosox.. and what I'm about to tell you is not a fact I relish, in fact it keeps me up at night.

I'm not "preaching" this stuff because it sounds cool or gets me off or something. It's because it's literally the only way forward. That it's extremely hard doesn't change that, truthfully it just makes it all the more urgent.

You seem to have grasped that the root of the problem is our culture, or social organizations and our material culture in particular. That is exactly right. We already have the technological fixes, for the most part, that we need to save ourselves. All that is left to do is stop thinking like Enlightenment-era businessmen. Unfortunately nearly the whole world has been compelled to think that way at one time or another through force of arms.

We have to try dude, the other option is watch it burn. I'm not comfortable with that.

Natural sugar and processed sugar interact with one's body differently. I would worry more about where the sugar she gets comes from as opposed to how much she takes in in total.

I'm comfortable with watching it burn, Thucy. Depending on which step on the evolutionary chain you prefer to call the beginning of humankind, various humanlike things have existed for anything from 500,000 to a few million years. In 9,800 years, our species created revolutionary agricultural methods that, up into the mid-1700s and early 1800s, supported us in such a way that didn't do any good for the environment but didn't push it over the edge. Yeah, most every continent was populated, but even in populating every corner of the planet, nature survived. In the 200+ years since then, our species has far exceeded its population capacity and simply learned how to move faster than nature can.

As far as my personal responsibility goes, I feel as if I am doing a greater service to the long-term survival of my species and to nature by letting it burn rather than helping find another temporary solution to our broader industrial problem. I would rather let the cleanse occur, just as would in a forest fire or natural disaster, and watch something stronger come out of it, even if that means I or my kin (not planning on having children, but you get the idea) end up dying.

I'm fairly certain that most environmental scientists, at least those I communicate with, would agree that the most beneficial long-term solution for the planet is to knock humanity back down to its carrying capacity, which, for those that aren't aware, is in the millions, not the billions. Yeah, people are going to work in their own ways to try to "save" the environment, but the fact of the matter is that nature is going to survive and evolve. Humanity is what's going to suffer, and if, as a collective civilization, selfishness and greed are of higher interest than survival, then I'm fine watching it die.

"I'm comfortable with watching it burn"

Jeeeesus. Sign of the times I guess. All I ask is, if you have nothing to contribute, at least stay out of our way, we have a lot of work to do.

"I feel as if I am doing a greater service to the long-term survival of my species and to nature by letting it burn rather than helping find another temporary solution to our broader industrial problem."

Yeah no that's the whole point I'm making. I'm advocating a permanent solution, but one that doesn't involve an out of control ecocide. That's why I'm not just saying "oh no worries mate, the right suite of GMO varieties and satellites and databases will save us."

Yes, I'm with you. If we fail and it goes to hell, life will spring eternal. I take solace in that. Because that is probably what's going to happen. But how about your obligation to your neighbors? They don't deserve to suffer in the ways that they will if this whole thing goes forward. We owe it to the sandhill cranes, the tuna and the cypresses, as well as the Joneses at the end of the block, to at least do them the dignity of getting up out of the chair and walking toward the ship's steering wheel to try to avert a catastrophe. Let us find out if we were too late by trying, not by presuming it. What else is there to do in the meantime anyway?

"the most beneficial long-term solution for the planet is to knock humanity back down to its carrying capacity"

I absolutely agree here again. The way to do this and ensure our survival though is not to just drive off the cliff. That could very well spell our total extinction. Often I will say things like "we either do it ourselves or nature does it for us" but that is oversimplified. If we do it ourselves we can avoid the worst effects of mass ecocide and prevent an incalculable amount of suffering. If we let nature do it we may be responsible for the end of intelligent life in this section of the universe.

"Humanity is what's going to suffer, and if, as a collective civilization, selfishness and greed are of higher interest than survival, then I'm fine watching it die."

This is fucking bullshit. Read a history book. The greed and selfishness you are talking about are not "humanity's" fault, they are the fault of a social system that has put some people with some fucked up ideas about right and wrong into some very powerful positions, who proceeded to conquer the world and force everyone else to agree with them, and then, having found that there was no meaning behind what they had done, basically masturbate themselves to death while the house burns down. My friend, you know better. Common people with common sense are better than that. Native people all over the world and ordinary people in even the most industrial country know better than all this. It is an arbitrary of social control and a value system given to us by Western culture and capitalism that deserves to die, not the billions of innocent people in its grip.

I'm glad you're comfortable being a misanthrope, but for those of us who still have the ability to love, like I said, I'll ask that you get out of our way.

Like, why are you even studying environmental science if you don't even plan to do anything about it? Boggles the mind. We're going to die anyway, may as well do the right thing.