***waves hand***

I try it every time. Or at least propose it. Every time Italy doesn't go through and stabs me in the back. The temptation is too great, I suppose.

I'm like Roosevelt, I love the fleets. Italy invading Austria requires plenty of armies which is also very difficult regarding their narrow position. Going against turkey is easy, fast, and can get you plenty SCs. and with the extra fleets you build it is simple to go after France next, given that only so many armies can fit through the Piedmont pass.

That said, the Tyrolian-Venice move has become a trademark of the live-game-italy community. Live games (Especially gunboat) are the bane of Austria's existence, because no one wants to take the time to work with him. Italy has been consistently seen as the least powerful country, and they get desperate. Another effective strategy of Italy is to team up with England and attack France. after a quick split you stick to the med, he sticks to the north.

But I always love trying it, because it is probably the only way to completely fuck Turkey in 1901. I prefer the blue water lepanto.

Marz, you clearly haven't seen an effective key. Played well, it doesn't matter if Turkey sees it coming. He can't defend both fronts and is dependent on Russia, who usually can't grow as a result and gets attacked eventually in the north.

I get the same feeling, goldie. I love to play it from both sides. Both parties get 8 or 9 centers and then duke it out, which is far more than either will ever get on their own. Italy stabbing Austria just gets centers thrown to T/R in general, which effectively means he gets his ass whooped unless they are both too nice to him or fight between themselves.

Geez, goldie, can we play I/A together sometime? Me too.

I have tried it a couple of times, but only once did it actually work (as in, we convinced the rest of the game for one turn that we are not working together). I actually think it's just an outdated opening.

As for the temptation to stab, I think it's just about how much somebody weigh the distance in time in terms of profits. For some players big profits that he could gain in a couple of turns of fruitful cooperation are outweighed by small profits he can make now. It's not bad, not "stabby" or anything, we all have our own, different heuristics.

Nevertheless - I don't believe in war between Italy and Austria from day one in full press games. For me it's like Austo-German war or Russian-German war, it only leads to exposing oneself to other neighbors and a stab.

hmmm, ive tried key twice with BO as Italy and he stabbed both times

I just kinda assume any thread that's actually about Diplomacy on this forum is started ironically so I'll believe that.

Yeah, ssorenn, I've stabbed out of it, and it's never benefited me. I owned up to that. It proves my point too.

what it proves could be up for a discussion, NO?

Umm, okay, then discuss it...

I think from Italy's perspective or at least the reason I don't like the key as Italy is because the risk of Austria stabbing you is too high to trust in his honesty. Italy being as weak it is can't afford a 1901 stab. btw I hate turkey and every game I have to work with turkey I always try to demolish him because fuck turkey. I once ate his liver with a side of fava beans and a nice Chianti.

I don't like it because it's a very obvious opening, and therefore less fun for me.

It's hardly obvious and there are so many variations you can pull to make it less obvious too. The blue water, which goldie mentioned, is an obvious key too, but it doesn't matter, because Turkey and Russia can't beat you if you pull it off.

The amount that can be accomplished with two powers being unwavering will always be extreme however; it's hardly a point in its favor.

Iv never actually done a blue water. That one is very, very risky for Italy. I want to try though

Many reasons I don't play it:
1) Russia very rarely send 2 units North which is the ideal situation
2) Rumania is not guaranteed to Austria if the Key Lepanto is spotted
3) Italy usually does not follow through - there are too many games in which Italy thinks taking Trieste in 1901 is the best strategy - maybe it is a site thing. I just played 4 games as Austria (all high level) (3 still ongoing) and I got stabbed by Italy in 1901 in 3 of them despite going out of my way to be friendly.
Last thing I will do now is invite Italy into Trieste :P

Oh, one more thing. I find that the Key Lepanto is also better for Italy than a normal Lepanto. Nets Italy 1 more easy build.
As Austria, I like a weaker Italy who I can stab better after a normal Lepanto :P

I would argue that the Key Lepanto should be the standard opening for Austria and Italy in gunboats. Ofc, this would require both players to know how it is done.

@goldie ... I love the blue water because it establishes mutual trust. I would argue that it's even riskier for Austria.

• Italy moves to Ionian and Trieste in the spring. Second army can go north or to Apulia - doesn't matter for this discussion.
• Austria moves to Rumania, Budapest, and Albania in the spring.

At this point, Italy can completely fuck Austria over and Austria is totally invested, having pissed Russia off and given that Turkey probably has an idea of what's going on. Assuming Turkey and Russia bounce the Black Sea, though (a move I avoid for this reason), the Aegean is guaranteed, so...

• Italy moves to Aegean or Eastern Med, personal preference, and Serbia (or stays in Trieste as a last resort, though this leaves Austria without a build).
• Austria moves to Ionian, Italy's army is now in Apulia ready to convoy either to Tunis or to Syria, depending on the fleet position.

At this point, just as Austria had to trust Italy not to stab him in A01, Italy now has to trust Austria, which is hard to do, but if done correctly, it beats Turkey even if he is completely aware that it's coming. It's the deadliest set of moves in 1901 around, and I find it's best played around with in non-anon when you either know whether or not your neighbor is creative and trusting or are playing with someone whose record visibly indicates a willingness to play keys. Playing it an anonymous game is too risky for me.

I think that it ultimately comes down to risk v reward. Most players are risk-averse. If a players is the type of "armored duck" as Richard Sharpe put it, they're far less - inclined to attempt a risky maneuver without just cause. Meaning, if Russia and Turkey aren't allied, why stick your neck out for the block in the chance it pays off with a stab - free alliance.

What I've found is that players that are willing to take higher risks will find more solo opportunities. That said, if I have a pretty good feeling that Russia and Turkey are allied, I'm far more willing to Key than if they're not. I don't see as big a benefit because it may be that I have a Russian or Turkish ally that I'd rather have than an Italian one suggesting a risky move that grants me one fewer centers than a standard opening.

heh, so I looked it up and I did try it once. I ballsed it up so horribly I cringe looking back on it.

gameID=110043

bo, I'm pretty sure you just described the Key, not the Blue Water.

Yeah Bo just described the Key.
Also if Austria moves to Ionian, you are probably giving Turkey another build in Greece.

Not necessarily. You can use Serbia to bounce.

Err - this is Key Lepanto. So, Serbia is empty. Austria has moved to Rum and Bud/Gal. Italy will move to Serbia.
This is why Turkey can either bounce Serbia, help Russia is Rumania, or take Greece.

Oh, I was thinking that you were talking about the Blue Water. My bad.

I prefer to negotiate favorable moves than to leave risky ones like that open Serbia. So if I were to key, I'd open to Serbia and Bud, have Turkey and Russia bounce in Black Sea. Then for fall I'd offer Turkey two supports to Rum, give only one and take Greece.

Hmm.. That means giving up the build in Rumania though.
The ideal Key in which Russia opens north and Austria ends up in Ukraine and Rumania is amazing though - anyone has a game with it being implemented??

If I look farther back in my history, I think I may have come close once. I don't know about others.

But in the situation I laid out, Rum remains neutral. Since R and T bounce in Black Sea in the spring, and Russia moves to Rum with 1 support in the fall, 1 support from Bul to Rum will bounce. Its easily just as crippling as a Key.

Here's an example of me not stabbing Austria during a key. Unfortunately, no onenpit pressure on Russia in the north, so there was no way to keep him from consuming Austria.
gameID=105369

Love the Key Lepanto, this is my only successful attempt at it though, Austria never trusts me enough to follow through usually.
gameID=69287

And here's one where I was Austria. It was going great until I took Italy's centers. I guess doing a key with me is dangerous either way for my ally
gameID=62642

I tried a sort of variant of it in gameID=49757, but Italy never followed through on all his commitments, so I killed him. I was successful in fomenting the R/T war though.

How is occupying both Rum (i.e getting a 2nd build yourself) + Ukraine as crippling as not occupying either??
I agree your proposal is a decently effective ploy but it is nowhere close to as crippling as the ideal Key in which Austria lands up in both Ukr and Rum. In the ideal Key, Russia is crippled.
What you suggested is very similar to the game that abge refers to - and because Russia does not get crippled, he gains an advantage. The loss of Galicia, Rumania in 1902 was the decisive factor there.

Gold, what did he do wrong? Cause it looks like you stabbed him S02, and thoroughly fucked him A02, so I assume he "never followed through on all his commitments" in year one?(!?) Was two fleets just so unacceptable?

Not a Key, but Kestas got rekt as Italy with me as Austria. That was one of the high points of my early years here. Also that game name.
gameID=3751

Ionian was to go to Aegean in return for him having Serbia. The whole point of the key is to get into Aegean or Eastern Med in 1901.

Sh@dow - in no world would Austria be able to gain Ukraine. Lets say spring moves go off perfectly. You're still going to lose Rum to Russia or Turkey in the fall unless they are complete and utter fools. If Russia takes Rum and Sweden, then A Ukr is pretty much useless.

The perfect Key requires too much luck, too many moving parts to succeed. My variant of it is slightly less crippling, but leaves far less to chance.

@Gold none of the Key Lepantos I've seen in this thread nor the articles I've read suggest that. I'm a bit confused. Although I suppose if he said he would...

"Key" goes for AEG/EAS. "Key Lepanto" stops by TUN. Is my understanding and based on my reading at http://diplom.org/Online/Openings/textversion/Italy.html. Although I admit http://www.diplomacy-archive.com/resources/strategy/articles/playing_the_key_lepanto.htm seems to suggest moving straight to AEG

I don't wish to be particularly pedantic, I just wanna make sure that I'm speaking the same language as other Dip players, so people like Gold doesn't stab me (too hard)!

Dunno. If Austria moves to Gal, Rum in Spring..
(While R has moved North with 2 units and put 2 units in Ukr, Sev)
This is NOT that uncommon.
At this point Russia moves Ukr back to Warsaw to cover.
And Rum S Gal-Ukr succeeds.
The only loss of Rum is also if Turkey and Russia cooperate in the Fall. Which is not 100% assured if you can sell it is an Italian stab. Tell Turkey for example, that hey I will move out of Rum - take it.. need you on my side to fight Italy..

Its not very likely, but its not near the realm of impossibility either. As I said, yours is a very efficient ploy, perhaps more likely to work - but not as crippling as this.

Valis - it was in our press, so not to worry about that. But the point of the Key Lepanto is not just to get an extra army in the Balkans, but to get a fleet in AEG. The Italian Serbia is payment for a foregone build. In my game, I told him to move to AEG, but he instead took Serbia for free, grabbed his normal build, and was going to go on his way.

Ehhh, I suppose so Sh@dow. It just requires a bit more guesswork but when you spell it out like that its not improbable. But you're still left with a likely Russian build from Sweden being put in Moscow, as well as a Russian army in Warsaw. No matter how you spin that, Ukr is being dislodged the next turn (because no sane Turkey would still be on your side in 1902).