^ krellin just trying to lure us into getting stabbed my him TWICE

bad tactic krellin, by posting this thread you are encouraging meta-ing and should be banned

:P

Not at all. As stabs are a part of every game, you are therefore suggesting that this topic can never be discussed...thus creating a paradox, as you encouraged me in a different thread of post game-relevant topics. By banning this topic and creating said paradox, you do risk dissolution of the universe. Thus, I would encourage you to comment, unless your starship is near a black hole in to which you can escape...

Be open to work together again, but move carefully.

I would re-ally with a stabber if they agreed to conditions that made them less of a threat to me.These kinds of arrangements do tie up units and make less effective alliances, sometimes, though.

krellin, I was joking. That is why there was the emote at the time. I am more than willing to work with my stabbed victims.

What prior or post actions would you take in to considerations? Blossoming personality? I.e. Just enjoy playing with person -- does that come in to play? I would definitely be more prone to ally-up again if I truly enjoyed the dialogue with the player.

The person who's entire "diplomacy" was "Wanna do this...OK...move here, Ill move there..." will be harder to trust again, for me.

So...does "personality" count - I guess that's the question?

FD...I know...hence my less-than-serious reply.

I'm pretty quick to ally with people who stabbed me (or who i just stabbed). I'll work with them the very next turn if the proper conditions are right and I can reasonably assume their sincerity (such as if Germany just forced himself into Bur, but Russia dropped two armies in Prussia and Silesia on the same turn)

Of course, there is a price for it (depending upon the relative strength of my position) but there isn't any reason to not ally with someone short term. I re-evaluate all alliances on a yearly or even a turn by turn basis.

ah, I just thought that is how you usually reply to thing :P

but there is a limit sometime. I used to play Diplomacy somewhere else (not a true Diplomacy site) where someone literrally stabbed a new player every turn, and was in general just happy being a vicious stabber

And krellin, personality certainly does count. While I enjoy allying with someone whose dialogue is great, I know that diplomacy skills correspond with how enjoyable you are. So I'm more wary of those people. Conversely, if someone talks just a little bit each turn, they're a more inexperienced player, and they'll usually emit tell-tale signs of a stab should it be coming again. So the less they talk, the better.

Well, some people are more eager to stab than others. If someone stabs you, that's evidence that they're an eager stabber.

not really, tswelt. YOu need to stab sometimes

@GOLDIE -- Wiat, you you are implying that "talkative / verbose conversation" generally indicates a higher quality, and thus more dangerous, player?

Interesting thought....probably true.

Would like other's thoughts on this.

note to self: do not send any messages to goldfinger. Then he will think I am no threat whatsoever

Sometimes the perceived stab by others on the board can be far greater in power than the real stab could ever generate.

It depends on the nature of the stab. If I consider the stabber to have stabbed too early I am unlikely to consider re-allying with him as he will likely be more trouble than he's worth. If, as can often be the case, I have managed to anticipate the stab and taken actions to stop it achieving anything I am generally willing to re-ally swiftly (with the conditions of our alliance renegotiated in my favour, of course).

I suppose you could call the eagerness to stab early a personality trait... but things like "niceness" don't really count as factors for me.

@tswett "If someone stabs you, that's evidence that they're an eager stabber. " Evidence does not equal proof. Think about it. And it depends on what you mean by "eager stabber".

I rarely stab eagerly. I stab out of necessity to achieve a goal, but would rather leave an alliance intact until I have run out of other options, keeping in mind that the *primary* objective of the game is to *win* (NOT draw/survive)....too many people believe "draw/survive" has the same value as a win, and are too eager NOT to stab "because we've been such great allies, blah blah blah..."...clearly playing to a different objective - i.e. not trying to win.

It's almost impossible to win without one stab being involved.

If being long and thorough in converation is a sign of danger... no wonder everyone gets nervous dealing with me, LOL

what I love is when not stabbing does more damage to another power than not stabbing. i actually did manage to pull that off once (he moved to defend his centers, and threw himself completely out of postiions)

goldfinger, that's a really good observation that players whose messages depart from their usual length/frequency/etc are probably planning a stab. If I had followed that intuition, I could have defended myself from at least one costly recent stab.

and krellin, I disagree playing for a draw leads to not enough stabbing. I always start the early game aiming for a game, and a solo only comes to mind when I see I have a good chance. That doesn't make me stab less often. In fact, I have tried playing for a solo from the start, and it lead to me stabbing WAY too often

+1 to krellin on the draw/survive. I hate players who are in a winning position but don't have the balls to try for a solo, and the game ends up with a 5WD or a 4WD. The perfect game for me on this site is the final three players all duking it out with each other for years, trying to get a solo. I've linked that Masters game too many times though, so I'll spare you all.

FD - its a balance. If you're too quite, I'll kill you. If you're too talkative, I'll be wary. You gotta make yourself juuuust right to find my love lol

*quiet

FD - what krellin means is the board collectively playing for a draw. Obviously if you're a 5 SC Italy in 1906 when there are two 10 SC nations on board, you're not playing to solo. the problem arises when those 10 SC nations aren't willing to go for the solo

it would depend on the position. I have probably violated that rule for you at least once (check the CPA alliance on my profile) and I have a PPSC two way A-T draw on my profile.

http://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=98191#gamePanel

this is just one example (not sure if gunboats count from what we are discussing) of my ideas on how the game plays. I only try for the solo if I am fairly certain I can achieve it

Well, you definitely didn't need to include the 0-center Italy in that draw, no?

yeah, I forgot to put my draw down. Almost as embrassing as the time when I was Russia in a dominant position (aiming for a solo) but I put draw up so I wouldn't be a threat. When I came back, it was a seven way drae

I did that recently, drawing with 12 centers when no one else was above 6. Strategic draw votes always come with that risk.

@FD- In my opinion, drawing like you did in that game ruins the game for everyone. The thing that makes diplomacy fun (to me) is that everyone is jockeying for position to try to set up a solo threat or make someone else a solo threat in order to give their position strategic significance. When you take soloing out of the equation, the whole game falls flat.

And I do not agree. Simply avoid playing games with me then :-). I draw because I was competely out of position to attack England.

my profile is filled with these types of game, that is just how I play

To each his own. I do honestly think that it is the one thing that I wish was different about this site: So many people only want to play the first half of a game, and then they draw!

Stabs should only happen when they are game-changing moves that favor the stabber. If someone stabs me for a petty gain, then I am probably only looking to re-ally with them for fuck-you revenge at first reasonable opportunity. If someone stabbed me for a game changing move that favored them, then shame on me for not anticipating it and I'm happy to work with them again (albeit cautiously).

This may be the first thread I've seen where Krellin makes multiple posts and the only caps he uses is to begin a sentence.

I'll work with a stabber if the situation dictates I should. I usually get stuck though, because I make demands that I guess are somewhat excessive (?) to ensure they don't get at me again. I think it's reasonable but nobody ever takes the deal. *shrug* maybe I need to be more forgiving.

Then again, I've never done worse than draw or a PPSC point gain survive after this happens - so maybe the hard line is the best line.

maybe if YJ played games he would know :-)

"I am more than willing to work with my stabbed victims"

+1 Just thought that was funny.

I like to work with guys after they've stabbed me sometimes too. Righteous indignation coupled with some quite understandable caustion can go quite a long way if the transgressor is willing to work with you. Abortive stabs suck though. If you stab it should be for the kill or to at least cripple.

Or I could be like fortress door and play every game I'm in twice :P

Until now, I've only ever played Diplomacy on the board. But here, online, I've been surprised at how much of an increased role stabbing plays. Frankly, it seems to be the only tool in most peoples' toolboxes. And as such, it has dramatically reduced effectiveness, and the benefits of trustful play are never encountered.

Of course, it's trivially easy to defeat the person who stabbed you in such an environment -- blackmail them. But then that's the only tool I get to use. There are never amazing and surprising moves that can only come in an environment of general trust.

@Willtor - there are plenty of trusting people out there. You just have to find them. Check out this opening here gameID=59948. It was going fantastically and was a game that should have ended in a nice draw, if it weren't for a few tactical mistakes by myself and Italy.

Ooh! Good game. Okay, I probably spoke out of turn. I've only participated in 1.5 games, here. But the thread confirmed my experience.

I fundamentally agree with Crazy Anglican -- if you stab, don't leave the other person alive. Go for the jugular, and don't give them time or leverage to work something out with anybody else. And you lose credibility with your other allies when you do it, so do it late.

If you're clever, though, you generally won't make arrangements you don't intend to keep or that become inconvenient.