I'm not even going to bother *sigh*

ready up guys, i dont want to sit here and waste my night ALL night

^agreed

Sorry, I dont think quickly. It takes me a minute!

First, an explanation for the holding out:

I have a few standards on when it comes to drawing or cancelling as appropriate ends to a game.

First of all, unless the draw has been absolutely forced (stalemate position, no one can be eliminated without losing the stalemate, no success in trying the latter), I do not vote draw if there are more people alive than I feel need to be in the draw. In this case, I felt the result should have been a 4-way EFGI draw, because Russia was about to lose St. Petersburg, and Italy would have been able to mop up the rest of RT (and I would have allowed him). I let my actions - pulling back to the stalemate area in the Mediterranean and then fighting it out - speak loud enough as to my intentions.

Secondly, I do not vote for a draw if someone CDs unless there is just no alternative. In this case, I paused at the beginning of Italy's last autumn, giving all of you enough time to pause the game so we could continue with Sydney City when we could all get the chance. You all rejected that. I then voted Cancel, which I believe to be the appropriate result for a CD, and posted the game on the forum for someone to buy in so it wouldn't need to be cancelled. You all rejected that. You all insisted on a draw which would hurt my GR.

I only relented and voted Draw when Germany attacked, because then there was a chance *I'd* be eliminated from the draw, and fuck that.

I do not believe in granting a draw for players who have to leave. You should not join a game if you cannot finish it, or barring that, you should find a sitter, or vote pause so we can pause. There is no excuse for CDing, and no excuse for drawing for people who ruin games by leaving early.

I also feel it was incredibly unfair that I was forced to lose GR because of Italy quitting, and that it is unjust that I was punished for someone else's error. I did not exploit the CD to try to solo, as the record will clearly show. I took all appropriate action in my situation to ensure a just outcome for the game that didn't unduly punish me. You all would not allow that. I thus had to accept an outcome which was unjust to me, in order to prevent a greater injustice to me (my being eliminated due to overstretch to fight an Italian solo which turned into an Italian CD).

I do not feel I can possibly be considered unethical or unjust in any respect for my course of action, and I greatly resent the fact that multiple players explicitly broke the site rules in an effort to pressure me into an action which was blatantly unfair to me.

Now, EOG.

1901: Italy opens against me and stabs into Trieste. I see a first target! I leave England and Germany alone, as they bounce in Belgium (good thing I didn't get involved there), and go to handle Italy.

1902: Waste more time with Italy. Minor bickering in the north, nothing too serious. Italy leaves me alone, I pull back and signal that I'm leaving him alone.

1903-04: England signals alliance then stabs then allies. I moved to defend myself and signaled for an attack on Germany so he'd leave me alone. I figured once England saw the bait, he would take it and try to take Belgium and Holland in one go. This would leave me with the option of grabbing Belgium from him, getting a build, and securing a rather strong position against him.

1905: Fight England. See lots of draw votes. Italy's getting big. After Germany blocked me in North Sea, I knew England would not die in time to stop the Italian solo, so I disbanded the retreating fleet and rebuilt in Marseilles to signal my intention to stop Italy's solo without voting for a draw I didn't want (6wd? wtf?)

1906-endgame: Successfully fight Italy in the Med, waiting for England and Germany to take Scandinavia and lock up the 4wd. Italy quits. See above.

to your second point, no, you only had pause for 1 turn until you saw him return. then you removed it quickly. by the start of the next season. maybe next time Simon. PW protected and everything.

we will all get hookah and smoke it together and have amerry ol time.

And in response to the people PMing me about being a jerk/unfair/unjust for not voting draw: read my explanation and try again. If you still don't like it, don't play with me. No one's forcing you to do so.

I had a cancel up when he first NMRed, then a pause when he NMRed a second time, since the second time he had a pause vote up, and I kept it there the rest of the game, including after he CDed, so we would have time to find a replacement. Try again.

PE- I would have held out if I were in your position, but I wasn't so I pushed for a draw rather than getting munched in the middle.

I had you pegged as a survivor, Barn3tt. lol. Figured that since Russia was catching a bunch of shit in the southeast he couldn't make it to your HSCs in time, so I let England go in the hopes you two would fuck up Scandinavia, and thankfully y'all did. And I don't really blame you for the attack at the end, I'd have done the same*.

*: well, after voting cancel and seeing if people would go for it. tactics-wise I'd do the same

I had pause before you son. He only hit every possible button that would allow him to say "he had to go" I don't blame him, it was already a couple hours and i guess he couldn't stay. You also can't help but blame yourself since you challenged him and continued the game farw well on into it, even though you knew he was off work in one hour, when you saw that you should have called for a cancel (which you didnt). Italy (sydney) CD'd with just cause, not just because it was bad form. But he explained it already.

Even you were the only Draw hold out. you continued to insist that you cannot discuss a draw in the forum even though you knew FULL well it was you holding out on the draw. Everyone else by voting draw was clearly voicing their opinion. I was only trying to inform you earlier in the forum that Sydney had to leave.

I don't blame you, I *might* have done the same thing...but i value my sleep more, so I must say, goodnight chaps :) we shall meet again in hell

Well, congrats. I had pause with plenty of time to go. Instead of pointing the finger at me because of the pause issue, you should point it at Russia and Germany (who never voted Pause at all, as far as I could see).

And sorry, but "I joined a game which I can't finish because of work" is bad form. His reason is above "I'm not winning/doing as well as I want, so I quit" but it's not good form. If you're starting a live game, you are implicitly agreeing to continue playing it until the game ends. He CDed in 1908. 19. 0. 8. The only games I've seen end in 1908 that I can remember are games I played against my little children in the local high school Diplomacy club I helped set up, back when they really didn't know what they were doing. Expecting a game to end in 1908 is absurd, and I do not consider it good form to CD in 1908 as the leader just because you have to go. He knew before the game started when he was leaving, and he allotted less than an hour to the game, which is ridiculous, and didn't look for a sitter in the inevitable event that he couldn't finish out the game, which is even more ridiculous. I have no pity for his plight.

Furthermore, you're asserting a series of absolutes which do not make sense:

1. You assert that it is absolutely so that I should have voted cancel when a player is leaving. As I stated before, a player leaving is no excuse to end a game.
2. You assert that "I challenged him" and "continued the game" as though going to stop a solo is wrong. That's so patently absurd it needs no further discussion.
3. You assert that just because everyone else voted Draw that they are consenting to a discussion of the draw. I have explained why this is not the case in my earlier posts. In a gunboat, only explicitly granted consent by all players involved opens the door for discussion. Voting Draw is only an expression that the player wishes the game to be drawn with all living players in the draw; it is not an expression of a desire to discuss the draw.

And to finish off, you did a lot more than merely try to inform me of Sydney's departure, but I will spare you the embarrassment of having that explained.

*sigh* not going to argue. Since of course diplomacy players "always" have to be right. look under advertised live games for point 2. for point 1 i'm still scratching my head on. 3. I guess, sure, why not, you can have that. 4. Don't try to be Putin, arguing with everyone doesn't make us all friends.

1. I'm not sure what the issue is. I think I got the times wrong a bit - he allotted two hours, not one - but the fact that the game was in 1908 when he left should be ample demonstration of the fact that he didn't allot enough time, as again, games end later than 1908. And again, he didn't get a sitter in two hours' time. He never made mention of even trying to find one. So, having not done his due diligence in making sure he could finish the game, or ensure someone else could, he CDed in poor form, not meriting a premature draw that would hurt me. Think about what you're asking: you're asking me to reduce my GR because someone else wouldn't do his due diligence in getting a sitter or allotting the proper time. Why should I be forced to be punished for his error?

2. I seem to have misunderstood what you meant. Yes, I continued on - because I wanted to give someone else a chance to buy in and not ruin the game. All the while, I had Pause and Cancel votes, indicating that if a consensus were reached on either, the replacement would not be necessary.

3.

4. Really? Everyone? You're the only one who's said anything detrimental about my decision. Sydney might, were he here/when he comes back tomorrow, but Barn3tt's already said he would have done the same and TheJok3r has backed my decision in private, so it's certainly not some self-righteous me vs. world crusade. I am responding to allegations of unethical conduct - allegations which, in the irony of ironies, were made by breaking site rules, which is unambiguously unethical - and doing so in a manner which has gotten, to date, more support than opposition. I hardly see how I'm the one "arguing with everyone."