France really had my number the entire game. I'll see if I can get to this tonight.

France had me suckered in for most of the game too ... I only realized at the last minute that thinning the draw would lead to no draw.

Good game, guys. Probably not going to get to this until tomorrow or Saturday.

I thought France was going to solo too :-)
I screwed one move on the south and it probably costed me the game. After that Russia almost did the move I need to take Ber and this would also give me the solo, but Turkey antecipated it really well I think.
But I really enjoyed the game, and will try to write a decent EOG when I have more time, hopefully before the weekend.

And maybe some of you can join the March GR game too.
This time it will be anon....

I'll readily admit that my early game was pretty piss poor. I hemmed and hawed about working with Italy or Russia and it really killed me. I eventually decided to ally with Russia so when he stabbed me Italy(understandably) had no I terest in helping me. It wasn't until both Italy and Russia were down my throat that I was able to convince Italy that I could throw all my centers to Russia. Thankfully Italy helped me get back up on my feet and I then went on to stab Russia again. Of course, once I did, Italy decided to attack me for who knows why and we essentially did the whole the over again France getting stronger all the while. Meanwhile Austria was doing fuckall completely unwilling to follow through on any plan I came up with.

Feabce was starting to get pretty big and the time came where I needed to decide for real if I was working with Russia or Italy. I decided to work with Italy because I didn't think I could rush France to tun and Russia had left himself a bit to open to me. So, I stab Russia and then Italy makes probably the worst play of the whole game by trying to convig from GRE to Mar. He completely gave up the excellent position he had against France and I said fuck it and tried to work with Germany and Russia to eliminate him.

Italy paniced and tried to throw the game buy I knew he couldn't so I just kept moving ahead. I tried to convince Russia not to move against germs y but he fell for Frances temptations and all of a sudden we had a real solo threat.

Luckily we were all able to put our differences aside and work together to stop France. At that point, I considered talking to France about backing off to eliminate Italy, but I decides France was too good and both Germany and Italy were too close to throwing the game for it to be worth it.

A very fun game overall, but very glad it's done

Basically, any advantage I had in the early game was killed by Austria's ineptitude and England's wish to die.

Seriously though, had we had an English player who was involved in the game, things would've been much different. I basically decided with Russia and France to go after England in 1901. I committed first by taking North Sea, and England rewarded that with suiciding on me, allowing Russia and France to take *everything*, despite my pleas that we work something out. I offered to retreat to Ska so we could turn on Russia together, but nope nothing and he force disbanded the fleet. As far as I know, 2WL checked out of the game almost as soon as it began, because he never answered any press of mine.

The other thing that went horribly wrong was Italy and Austria not getting their shit together and Austria inviting Russia to walk straight in and grow massive. I tried hard all game to get those two to work things out, because it was negatively affecting my play (as evidenced by 1903 massive Russia). Having Austria wander into Munich and basically do whatever he wanted ruined my day.

So yeah, those two handicaps basically meant I knew France was going to stab me eventually. Russia had been constrained in the north. So in 1905 I was looking to take Mun and Swe, get two builds and have the muscle to tell France to back off and head south. Problem was, I was preparing for a spring 1906 stab, not the fall 1905 stab that actually came :( France was a step ahead of me the whole game.

So, I convince Russia to build a line with me. Fearing that I was in a position where I could be eliminated in the late game though, I coordinated with France to take over Russia's position in the north. Turns out Russia didn't like that. And f***ing Austria cost me Ruhr because he just completely useless the entire game. I thought I could try to repair the line in the fall by incorporating Austria and making peace with Russia. Turns out neither of them wanted to work together *still* and Russia made a huge mistake of allowing an already massive France into Munich. Glad I worked with Italy to take Vienna. Turns out that's the army that would ensure my survival.

I had also been negotiating with France. He was very open to continued cooperation now that my entire position was pretty much breached. I used this trust to try and maneuver his fleets out of position (asking him to move to Barents) in the hope that Russia and I could actually work together and take North from him and start wrecking havoc behind the lines. But that dream never came true.

Fall 1909 was also a pretty big mistake of mine. Again, I was talking with France quite a lot. Also with Italy. I wanted to take France down, and Italy and I were tossing around ideas. One of us brought up convoy to Marseilles as an awesome move. But I had *thought* Italy dismissed this idea as too risky. Me, wanting to sabotage France into doing bad moves immediately went to him and said "Italy is convoying into Marseilles!" Well, turns out that's the move Italy actually did, and it failed all because of me :(

With Italy broken, I thought I had finally convinced Russia to keep me alive. I saw the F (St. Petes) build though and new he was trying to take me out. So, I did my best "I'm gonna toss this game" rampage and invited France into Hel in the spring, who so gladly obliged. Thanks to abge, Russia came to his senses and I demanded Berlin as the cost of not letting France solo.

Honestly, I think the key to my survival till the draw is that I was on both the southern and northern parts of the stalemate line. I was extremely vulnerable though and am very glad that I was able to survive to the end. Good game everyone [except A and E who screwed me >:( ]

Tell us how you really feel, gold. : )

I mean, EOG's are basically the site equivalent of Maury, right?

What a strange end game map. Nice job getting to Prussia abge

EOGs become exponentially less interesting or useful it people aren't willing to say what really happened or what they really feel so I very much appreciate it goldie.

Thanks ag. I'll admit that before Russia stabbed Germany that last time I was hoping France would back off enough so as to give me a shot at the solo. Thats why I was so insistent on getting armies so far up.

@abge. That is EXACTLY what made me stab Germany. I KNEW you had solo ambitions of your own, and I was completely vulnerable. That said, I also underestimated France and very nearly cost us all the draw opportunity. I will try to write more later.

To be fair, I was also actively trying to get Turkey's armies as far north as possible. Mainly because I wanted it to counter Russia.

Alright, here goes:

The game started alright. I generally hate playing Italy, but Austria offered me a Key, which is the best thing that can happen to Italy, and Russia seemed friendly. Turkey seemed cold from the offset, and his opening moves confirmed that, but Russia seemed willing to work against him and I can live with one of my neighbors not loving me. Unfortunately, Germany didn't bounce Russia in Sweden as I had hoped, and we had to deal with a giant purple monster earlier than I would have liked. Austria also demanded that I build two fleets and head West immediately while giving him Trieste back. I didn't much like how any of that sounded, so I moved on him in the hopes that Russia would be sane and value a strong alliance over cheap gains. Russia, unfortunately, was not sane, and I found myself friendless in the East, save maybe for a still cold and distant and now crippled Turkey. Turkey and I did end up working together, mostly out of necessity, and I eventually convinced Austria to stop being a dumbass for a little bit.

Unfortunately, once we beat Russia back, there was a France behind me ready to get very huge, and I had to choose between Austria or Turkey, neither of which I was well equipped to do, or going at France with inferior numbers and getting hopelessly crushed. I thought Russia had regained his sanity, which was stupid of me in retrospect, as he clearly never had any to begin with, and he and Austria seemed willing to help me against Turkey, so I went with that option. Unfortunately, Russia decided to stop being useful the minute he got Sev back, and I was stuck unable to crack Turkey on my own. Once France built a southern fleet, I knew I had no more time, so I sucked it up and stabbed Austria, backing my fleets off of Turkey, and then convincing him to fight Russia with me, because at this point I really just wanted Russia to suffer.

Somewhere around here, France, Turkey, and I tentatively agreed to a three-way draw, but that was never really my intention. With Germany's prodding, I elected to try to break into Marseilles and keep the game going, maybe getting Germany a bit bigger again and trying to set up a solo attempt for myself. Unfortunately, Germany and I miscommunicated (I thought he had leaked to France intentionally to try to replace me in a draw scenario, but apparently not), and my ploy failed miserably.

I thought I was pretty safe at this point, which was a mistake, but I figured there'd be no reason for Abge to try to cut me out when it would probably just lead to a larger draw and more effort on my part. He did stab me, and things looked pretty bleak, as I really had no way to effectively throw the game, despite what I was telling you. This is when I had what was probably my most annoying conversation with Russia, which is really saying something. He kept spouting some crap about how I had lied to him about moving to Budapest when I had done no such thing and he had just taken part in a coordinated three-person stab on me. It was awful.

Anyway, I was pretty sure I was going to die. France was promising to keep me around if I helped him try to solo, but he didn't really seem to be trying to solo, so that felt unlikely. Luckily, Russia did what he does best and royally fucked everything up, so I managed a spot in the draw.

tl;dr I did not like this game very much. Pleasure playing with those of you who weren't awful to play with.

No, France was trying to solo, ghug. He had me beat in the north for many years, and knew Russia would break for the easy stab with a promise for a reduced draw. Any help you gave him would've ended the game.

Oh, I did forget that part where I took place in a coordinated 3 person stab to knock you out of the game. Since we had to abort it fairly quickly due to Russia, I didn't really mention it.

Yeah, I understand that in retrospect. I didn't think there would be any chance of Russia actually stabbing you (there I go overestimating him again) at the time though, so it seemed like he was content getting rid of me and being done with it.

Interesting rant from ghug. I guess one lesson in all of this is that it is far easier to see other people's mistakes than it is your own. I managed to combine equal parts of greed, naiveté, and paranoia in a way that seems to have left everyone unhappy.

The greed came from what Italy sees as my first bout of insanity. In fact, I saw an opportunity to finish off Austria with a very slight risk that Italy would get one build instead of two, and Bo managed to make that one move ... I am happy to credit him with skill and foresight, rather than dumb luck, bit the fact remains that (in my opinion) Italy overreacted and threw away what would have been a very nice alliance. I was fighting on two fronts then (2WL had not yet checked out) and could easily have helped Italy finish off Austria and then help me squeeze Turkey, but when he basically insisted that all remaining SC's south of the alps belonged to him, that was not going to work. The unanswerable question is whether a different set of moves on my part would have made any difference in the long term, or whether it would have just delayed the irrational response.

The naiveté first appeared when I made peace with Turkey just in time to allow him to stab me again. I really should have known better than to leave myself open as I did, but I was really on the ropes with the combined I/T attack. The more significant evidence, though, was when France almost fast-talked me into giving him the solo. In fact, France did a masterful job of playing me off against Germany, with each of us attacking the other here and there when it was clearly not in our best interests to do so. I could never understand why Germany made some of the moves he did, but if I look back at the board with neutral eyes, I see that the same could be said of some of my moves. (And as an aside, France was as convincing as he was profligate in his offer of spots in a 3-way draw.)

The paranoia, though, is what drove most of my moves over the last few years of the game ... ever since I was able to get Turkey to switch sides and beat Italy back. All those Turkish armies along with Germany's inexplicable encouragement thereof were really making me nervous. It was obvious that if France were to back off some, I could lose 3 (or more) centers in a single turn and become the "thinee" in a thiner draw. I really wanted to make sure France kept the pressure on, but I missed a couple of key aspects of my analysis.

And, of course, the last ill-fated stab of Germany combines all three of my fatal flaws ... trying to winnow it down to a 3-way draw when Italy was on his way out combined with a strong concern about the German/Turkish threat combined with a naive receptiveness to France's assurances led me to try to take Germany out. Only the combination of Turkey's restraint on the board and lack of restraint in press convinced me I needed to back off.

If nothing else, this game has convinced me that rdrivera & abge are both far better players than I am. Hats off to both ... one for coming within a hair's breadth of a solo, and the other for almost single-handedly saving the draw.

Yeah, it was pretty clear you couldn't throw the game, which is why I kept attacking you. It would have worked if Russia hadn't stabbed Germany.

Took too long to type my response ... looks like abbe was responding to ghug.

Greed was exactly the issue, Bob. You grew faster than me in year one. I was concerned, but it wasn't that big a deal. I liked you at that point, and I'm used to people being able to work together to achieve fair gains in an alliance. I laid out a plan that would at worst have put you at seven centers and me at six, you agreed to it, and then you lied to me, pushing yourself to nine while I stood still at five. That's not an ally anyone wants. It's a boneheaded move for you because it put a target on your back, and it's a boneheaded move for the alliance because it creates mistrust where there wasn't before and leaves the ally feeling both that he is threatened and that he isn't actually benefiting from the alliance.

This is a fun thread. My thoughts, directed to each player:

Germany:

First and foremost, sorry goldie, you didn't deserve to get screwed over that way. It's not like I went after you in order to do that. I simply wanted a place to hang for awhile until the smoke cleared in my homeland, hoping maybe I could sneak back in. As for the massive Austria, that's me throwing my stash to the guy that didn't try to take it, and you happened to be the collateral damage. Somehow you made it to the end with a stake in both the Arctic regions and the Mediterranean and nothing in between - that's a new one.

As for Italy:

1.) Austria offers you a key, you take it. Bottom line. No questions necessary. It's an immediate display saying "I trust you to the end of the world and back." That stab you pulled was downright stupid. Even if you don't feel like you were growing quickly enough, you wait it out. The ride is a lot smoother if you deal with Turkey, even if it takes a long time, and keep France up north, which wouldn't have been difficult. The crazy I/T and I/R formations sometimes work, but they're dangerous, mostly for you, and it's much easier to wait for Turkey to break the juggernaut than to stab Austria. Moreover, what's special here is that you didn't even have to wait for Turkey - I had already gotten Russia to do that instead. Way too quick to stab, plain and simple, and any Austria that gets hooked like that should know what's coming and throw against you.

2.) I don't know why you're blaming Bob for having so many centers. I did that on purpose. I gave them all to him. It caused chaos. That's all I have left when I go all in and get screwed on the turn. Was he dumb for taking them all so quickly? Yes, but they were unimportant centers - only numbers. They don't mean much to you or him because they're bound to change hands once or twice in any given game once Austria is out of the way. That's just the nature of the territory. I don't think it was necessary to freak out over it, but it gained you an ally in both Germany and Turkey, so I don't blame you for doing so on the tactical side. I just can't tell whether it was a smart, somewhat manipulative play or simply an overreaction where one or two others bit the hook based on sheer size rather than actual strength.

Turkey:

I feel like you and I have such similar play styles that it actually hurts us. Sure, I'm the temperamental child between us, but putting that aside, I think we think pretty similarly and it's almost like some of the plans we try seem too good to be true. As for this game, though, I didn't give you a fair chance, not because of who you are but because of the country you played. I had my mind set on having Turkey out from the outset, and had Italy not been a moron, it would have worked, chaotic as it would have been with the two of them bickering over your three centers. Good game.

Russia:

I know it's hard to pass up freebies, but you did not cover all your bases. You grew so, so quickly when there was no rush, and that's a bad recipe for any nation but Russia in particular, having three or four neighbors typically eager to attack you. You gained in number but not in strength, and you need to learn to be more patient and differentiate between the two when you expand. Having nine or ten centers doesn't always mean much, but it will always put a target on your back, and if you have a weak nine or ten centers in 1903, you're gonna get torn a new one. If you can manage to have 9 or 10 strong centers, you're in great shape, but you didn't. I'm surprised you survived, but that's more than I can say for myself, so I guess you did okay.

As for us two, I wish I had had a chance to pick between you and Italy. There were two fabulous opportunities there, and if us two had managed to ally, with you taking Turkey and me taking Italy (not sure I would have beaten him from where he was, but let's assume), we would have run away with things. I liked working with you, and you're loyal, which is good, though sometimes too hesitant to take a chance.

France:

I wish you had taken care of my dying wish, but it's over so whatever. I don't think there's any reason to end a game early and thought you should have at least pushed yourself into St. Petersburg to get 17 and try the backing up thing again, but to each his own.

Tl;dr:

Lots of "coulda been," "if only," and "what if." Little bit of carryover anger. Little bit of "meh, whatever." Mostly stupid advice to people that are probably better at this game than I am. Don't bother reading it.

lol, i love how nobody is even addressing 2WL

He didn't really address us in game either...

@bo, Re 1, I tried to stick with you, but you wanted me to build units that didn't help me, undo the advanced position of my army, and devote my units in the other direction in a hopeless attack that couldn't possibly work. I wasn't interested in going back down to four centers and then sitting around for several years until you felt stable enough to stab me. That was clearly all you wanted from me, so I made new plans. My biggest mistake was not stabbing you for another center in '01 and waiting until '02 instead.

Re 2, first, the agreed upon moves would have left me in Tri and Vie and you in Bud that year, with one of us taking Bud the next. There was nothing you could have done to stop that, at what you did do confirms that it would have worked. He took centers because he chose to lie to me and put his own interests above the alliance. You are right that that wouldn't have mattered that much if he had been willing to even out. I can get over lies. But he wasn't.

#fuck2ndWhiteLine
He's the third worst.

@abge, if you're around, can I ask why you were so cold all game? It felt from the offset like you just had no interest in even having more than the most basic of conversations, and even when we were working together, the tone I got from your messages signified to me that you were only working with me because you had to.

@bo - You left out the humorous mutual stab we had early on ... part of what confirmed my intention to work with Italy (oops). My paranoia that time was justified, but if either of us had made those moves alone, it would have been even harder to really build an alliance. As it was, I never really trusted you later and was happy to help force your elimination.

Let´s try to write something about the game.

A lot of talking at start, everybody seems friendly but no one wants to commit to an aggresive opening (neither me), but the word Sealion was on the board. Set two DMZ´s and no bounce, a pretty neutral opening to see who is liying. Bingo: England opened to the channel.

So I engaged into a lot of talking with 2WL (he didn´t talk much, but answered all my press, so I kept writing) and manage to get him convoying into Bel and each of us got two builds. On the other side, Germany agreed to some sort of twisted Sealion and moved to North Sea. And Russia also got two builds, which is great for France. So, even with the fleet on EC and no way to build on Brest it was a good first year.

Then I know I need to choose my side in 1902 and with Russia growing so fast, Germany seems a better choice. We did the right moves and then Germany got a build from Bel and England was two down. Then one thing happened, England gave up on me and focused only on Germany and Germany can´t really do much because Russia become huge.

I knew that I need to reach NS first and then I will have all the West. So, I started to put my fleets on the move while Germany was still fighting with England and worried with Russia. Then a move from Austria into Mun (we have been discussing it, but I didn´t really expect him to go for it) forced Germany to disband two units while I have a foot on the island an a clear path to take the other two and NS. And this is what I did, keeping best friend with Germany that can´t really do much to prevent me growing.

Then I started to think I might have a solo shot, so I decided to stab Germany and rush for Berlim. Looking back I should have put a fleet on Den, so I could reach Baltic, but I didn´t and Germany fight back really well and forced me to make peace (a secong mistake as I should have used Russia´s move on Germany to put that fleet on Bal). But I get back on track with Germany and used a build from Bel (the price for the peace, thanks Gold) to jump on Italy.

Bad choice. Really bad choice. Turkey saw what is coming and get back on the game, helping Italy. Italy blocked my moves on the south and I know that it was a dead end, so I grab Tun and used the dying Austria to take Mun and do another run into Germany (sorry Gold). I took Mun and then again did a big mistake not pushing straight to Ber. Germany taking Vie didn´t help too.

At this point all I want is the solo, but I keep talking about a draw with everybody and also start to got some promises to help me solo from both Germany and Italy and even Russia if I remember well. I obviously don´t believe him, but keep trying to have Russia and Germany fighting as I was pretty sure I will lose Tun, so I will need Ber and one of War or Mos to solo. Then Italy try that stupid convoy to Mars and suddenly I keep Tun. And I made the biggest mistake. When Turkey attacked Italy and Italy was really pissed I should have demanded Rome or just pushed for it. This mistake costed me the solo. I just thought I could use Italy to hold Turkey, but it proved wrong. I missed other two good opurtunities to break the line in the south, one turn that I didn´t support Italy to Tyr and other one where I didn´t take Ion. I guess Abge outplayed me really classy in the end game, specially in the south.

Then with the south blocked it´s a run for Ber. I tried to keep Russia and Germany fighting and almost did the magic, still using the “let´s get a smaller draw” card, but in the last minute Russia changed his mind and this is it. I confess at some point I really thought I will solo, but missed my chances.

All in all, it was a great game, I enjoyed a lot the talkings with Gold and VB and also had some great moments with ghug and bo. And I should have talked more with abge during the game, maybe he could not see throw my moves so well like he did. And I guess I need to also thank 2WL for giving me such and edge in the West.

@ghug

I do not think that is a fair characterization of my press towards you at all. In the beginning I was very friendly, even though I ended up working with Russia. When you saved me from the Russian stab, I was very thankful. Things between us only went bad after you stabbed be for no reason in a way that clearly wasn't going to work. I think your view of me is being colored by the second half of the game. If you go back, you'll see the first half was rather pleasant.

@bo

I actually agree. I keep telling you, if you'll ever trust me even for 1 turn we'll crush the rest of the board.

@abge, maybe I was just reading into things that weren't there, but I felt unloved right from the outset.

That was certainly not my intention. As I said, I had a real hard time deciding if I was going to work with Russia or you. Perhaps that affected my press? I really don't know.

You most certainly were unloved the second half of the game; that was very intentional.

@ghug ... The key got stuck, so I asked you to back off of it and play as if our units were of the same country. We had Russia and Turkey fighting and had Turkey in a corner, but the key was clearly not going to work for quite some time, so I was hoping you would go after Turkey in the Med and let Russia take care of things from Bulgaria. I'm not sure why you keep on trying to tell me that that was a setup for a stab. It would have been at least two years before I could even think of that because I would have had to organize it with Russia, and yeah, I would have considered it then, but Turkey had to go down first. Face it - you jumped the gun, and it didn't work because Turkey was still alive and wrecked you later on, just as I said would happen. If there's any facet of the game that really doesn't change regardless of what happens with the rest of the map, it's that Italy and Austria will both go down if they fight unless no one else even tries to take advantage, and I gave Russia my centers to make sure that you wouldn't grow through me.

@abge ... Yeah, I know. I just have my reservations about allying with Turkey in general. I love to play as Turkey, but when I'm his neighbor, he's better off dead.