(If ANYTHING should be taken away from this, I'd argue--since in all fairness, I AM pro-gun control, but CT has some of the best gun control legislation in the nation, so while I am in favor of the matter on the whole, I don't think it's right to blame this incident on gun control or exploit it for political gain on the matter--that this shooting and the one in Aurora should show us the importance of psychological attention, and that we need to address that and some societal stigmas and ills in our society. This is NOT to exempt either killer from their actions--quite the contrary--but it seems doubly evident that there's both something sick permeating our subculture today and a lack of attention to some psychological warning flags, and both of these are leading to tragedy.)

No, Obi. Seeing 26 people die, in part because a deranged person like that was able to get his hands on such a deadly weapon, makes us sad and angry and leads us to want change.

I would say the same thing about this and a legitimate belief that a removal from God from schools is a cause (something I don't believe myself) if this weren't Mike Huckabee.

Mike Huckabee? Asshole? Wow, never happened before Obi!

Uhhh....so, a religious person making a religious point is political? Yes...he is talking about the government / politics making religious policy, but perhaps you missed GOD being repeated multiple times and the notion of SIN...i.e. EVIL. God forbid anyone talk about their morality when someone commits the most heinous of immoral acts.

Fuck off, Obi...what he is suggesting is that a basis for moral principle -- i.e. relgion -- is systematically being scrubbed from our society, and POLITICS ASIDE Huckabe -- (whom I personally despise, because I think he's as much of a douchebag hypocrite as you are) -- actually believes what he is saying about religion here....as opposed to the ACTUAL politicians that use tragedy to push legislation.

did Huckabe actually propose legislation here? HOW was this a political act? Did he specifiacally call out one party or the other, or is he talking PRINCIPLE, you stupid fuck?

Krellin, you do realize that if legislation is created to prevent further tragedy, then it is pushed because of a tragedy, right?

You can't honestly say that any lawmaker wants to get rid of guns for any other reason than the harm that they cause innocent people.

"Fuck off, Obi...what he is suggesting is that a basis for moral principle -- i.e. relgion"

When you can 1. Spell your moral principle correctly and 2. Tell me how a religion which includes...oh, hell, see all previous posts on the matter, I'm not repeating myself.

Religion is NOT implicitly moral, the Judeo-Christian religions have PLENTY of immoral passages in the text and in its history, AND--lest we forget--

Not everyone in this country BELIEVES in that "basis for moral principle"...

And yet the Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, agnostics and atheists of this land are NOT evil people.

You cannot promote God in public schools. Period.

"did Huckabe actually propose legislation here?"

By saying the trouble started when we removed God from schools--which is NOT when I'd argue the trouble started, but anyway--he's implying that those who do NOT feel God or religion should be promoted in schools...

Perfectly moral atheists and Jews and Muslims and so on...

People like myself, abgemacht, PE, Santa Clausowitz (I hope I don't speak up for anyone without right there) and so on are immoral and part of the problem.

WE'RE NOT.

This is not a God problem.
This is not a gun problem, as, again, CT has good gun control laws, so I AM being fair here.
This is not Left.
This is not Right.

This is NOT, therefore, something which should be a platform for ANYONE to speak on, especially just over a day after it happened.

Obama somehow refrained from doing so yesterday...
The Networks mostly did...
Everyone did...
Except Putin, and you'll notice, he's on the LEFT with me, and *I* chastised HIM.

I'm talking to BOTH sides:

DO NOT USE THIS AS A SOCIAL OR POLITICAL PLATFORM...AT. ALL.

NOT NOW.

THIS. IS. NOT. THE. TIME.

Be it God or gun control you're pushing...NOT THE TIME

(I'll amend that last comment slightly--I think there IS a gun problem but it's not applicable to this tragedy as, again, CT has good gun control laws, so just as this should not be used as a platform by the right to push God on schools and people and chastise we un-believers by proxy for daring not to believe and implying we're part of the problem, likewise, the Left shouldn't exploit this instance to babble on about "taking all guns away" or "shutting down the NRA" as Putin so wrongly said yesterday.

Again, talking to BOTH sides--this shouldn't be a talking point for ANY social or legislative action for a change...the President was exemplary yesterday in being very sincere, very to the point, and very tearful and heartbroken, without overtly calling for this or that or anything else, just empathizing deeply and sharing grief.

THAT is the course of action right now, and no other, CERTAINLY no politically-motivated action.)

Obi, the fact that CT has better gun control than the rest of the nation does not mean it has good gun control laws.

^I don't disagree...

I'm just trying to be fair, ghug (after all, as I'm arguing against partisanship at this time, I don't want to appear partisan myself.)

In fairness...I HAVE cited the Northeastern states' gun control laws (which on average range in the Top 10 in the country, I believe) as positive examples vs. several Bible Belt states which are in the Bottom 10 of the country...

And on those occasions I held the Northeastern states up as an example.

As such, it would seem a bit hypocritical or disingenuous of me NOW to backtrack on that endorsement.

I stood by them as an example, and so I'll concede that, by the standards that I personally would have accepted for nation-wide gun control (as I WOULD be happy, flawed as you point out even their gun control laws to be, if all the nation adopted VT's or CT's or NH's gun control laws) this tragedy obviously would still have occurred, as it DID occur in CT yesterday.

As such, while I stand firm that there is a gun control problem in the nation, I'd far more readily point to Aurora and all the problems concerning how THAT madman was able to acquire such a vast amount of guns, ammunition, and EXPLOSIVES in such a span of time as to make that event tragically possible...

I'll concede to the gun lobby here that the Newtown case is NOT one which I personally feel should be held against the pro-gun people of America as it would have occurred even given standards I'd settle for being adopted...

And in ANY CASE, again, it's not even right to politicize this yet AT ALL; when last I heard the deceased children were either still at the crime scene or having autopsies performed, they haven't even been returned to the families for a funeral, for goodness' sake...NOT AT ALL THE TIME to talk politics on this one, in my opinion--

But again, to be FAIR to BOTH sides, just as I feel pushing God on schools wouldn't have solved this problem, and advocating for such action on Huckabee's part is exploiting the situation,pushing for gun control when CT has comparatively good gun control is once again exploiting the situation and, in both cases, not appropriate at this time.

Hey, how many psychos have shot up the Bible Belt schools with their lax gun laws? Maybe Huck is right. God and guns. The way it was always intended. Let's face it. If God didn't want us to be the deadliest species with 100+ meter range, he would not have given us guns.

ALLOWING A CHILD TO PRAY IN PUBLIC SCHOOL IS NOT PROMOTING GOD OR ADVOCATING A STATE RELIGION. AND LET'S BE CLEAR, IS A MUSLIM CHILD NEEDS SPECIAL ACCOMMODATIONS IN A SCHOOL. HE GETS THEM. IF A CHRISTIAN CHILD WANTS RECOGNITION, HE DOES NOT GET IT. CHRISTIANITY IS UNDER ATTACK, PERIOD. YOU IGNORE THIS, OBIT BECAUSE YOU AGE A BIASED ASSHOLE. ALSO A RAGING HYPOCRITE, WHO CLAIMS YOU HATE THE POLITICIZATION OF THIS EVENT...BUT WAITED FOR RELIGIOSITY REAR IT'S HEAD BEFORE YOU RANT. FUCK OFF...YOU ARE SO OBVIOUS, AND YOU ARE *EXACTLY* WHAT YOU CLAIM TO DESPISE, USING THIS EVERYONE THIS MOMENT NOT FOR AN UNBIASED FAIR DISCUSSION, BUT FOR ANOTHER *THINLY* VEILED ATTACK ON RELIGION.

GET A LIFE, ASSHOLE. WE WON'T GET TUDOR FIND, AND YOUR RAMPAGE AGAINST RELIGION WILL NOT ELIMINATE RELIGION, YOU BIGOTED BORE.

stupid tablet keyboard...ugh.....

"Hey, how many psychos have shot up the Bible Belt schools with their lax gun laws?"

The Bible Belt states which I refer to have the highest gunshot murder rates in the nation...

So PLENTY of psychos are shooting up The Bible Belt, it's just no one's shot up a mass meeting place yet...but on average...yeah...you don't want to make that argument when:

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/murder-rates-nationally-and-state#MRord

Louisiana,
Mississippi,
New Mexico,
Maryland,
South Carolina,
Alabama,
Michigan,
Arizona,
Missouri,
Tennessee.
^Top 10 Murder Rates in the Nation.

Throw out Michigan and New Mexico, and 8/10 of those are Southern States/May as Well be (I count Arizona, as it pretty much governs right now like a displaced Southern state...even if you wanted to throw that out for some reason, 7/10 in the Bible Banging South...where's God coming down to stop the bullets THERE? I realize Missouri/Maryland are somewhat borderline as well, but I think the case stands all in all.)

And that is why nobody likes Krellin.

...Once you've calmed down, put down the bottle, and un CAPS-locked, I'll listen, krellin...

Krellin, before you accuse me of ignoring your point, know that I have firsthand experience of public schools in one of the most liberal, nonreligious cities in the country allowing anyone to pray if he or she so chooses.

Is there truly any law or policy preventing a kid from praying during a free moment? This is a serious question, as Krellin's statement appears to suggest that this is the case, but while it doesn't sound impossible, it's certainly nothing I've ever heard of.

Not in any of the schools I ever went to in three different districts plus the private school I'm in now...

"Is there truly any law or policy preventing a kid from praying during a free moment?"

There wasn't when I was a kid in the California school system...

You just can't pray en masse or make it mandatory or have it as part of class or that sort of thing.

They had Bibles at my high school you could read and check out...

So presumably you could take one in a quiet corner or to a quiet, unused classroom and pray with it if you so wished.

(I might have, but as that was around the first time I actually sat down and started reading the damn thing...well...the whole paradox around Adam and Eve was one thing...THEN reading the insanity that IS the Noah's Ark story...followed by basically all of humanity coming from this one family that just keeps breeding and breeding, it's like a solid page of "And A begat B, and all the days of A were 9hundredsandsoemthing, and B begat C, and all the days of C" and so on...yeah...it was around then I started thinking "THIS is a story at the core of the three most powerful and influential religions in the Western World...REALLY?" So yeah, never prayed on it, lol, but probably could have just fine.)

All I can say with certainty is that the high level of religiosity in Louisiana hasn't implied a low murder rate in Baton Rouge. The problem ain't a gun culture (per se; it may contribute in some cases though), or sin, or whatever else. It's poverty here. Baton Rouge has one of the highest murder rates in the country, but it's almost all concentrated in poverty-stricken regions of the city.

The annoying thing discussing it around here is how many people like to tie it to race. Race and crime in Baton Rouge are both functions of economic segregation. Poverty and American attitudes toward it, more than anything else, encourage violence.

Apologies that this commentary isn't terribly pertinent to the Connecticut shooting; that's more of a function of individual insanity (as are most massacres). As a more day-to-day thing it's poverty though.