But hey, at least they saved the life of the fetus, right? Oh wait.

Seriously, what kind of logic says "We can't kill the fetus because it has a heartbeat, so we're going to let you and the fetus die instead"?

"The hospital spokesman said that in general sudden hospital deaths were reported to the coroner. In the case of maternal deaths, a risk review of the case was carried out. External experts were involved in this review and the family consulted on the terms of reference. They were also interviewed by the review team and given a copy of the report."

The matter is obviously being investigated. It can be reasonably expected that any medical malpractice in Ireland will be punished. I don't think we can assume a national level conspiracy to murder pregnant women because Ireland is "a Catholic country."

But conspiracy speculation is so much more fun than logically reasoning through facts, so I definitely think Ireland is out to kill all pregnant women.

Out of interest, Zmaj, what made you think it was important to deny it was a conspiracy despite nobody even vaguely implying that there might be one?

...Unless you're in on it too!

Oh, I've dealt with /those/ kinds of pro-lifers most of my life. "If we allow abortions when the mother's life is in danger, then doctors will lie and just /say/ the mother's life is in danger." Bullshit fear-mongering idiots. Economically, choosing between a productive member of society and an undeveloped child is no choice at all. Children cost to raise what a dentist makes in a year. No comparison at all. Everyone may be equal, but some are more equal than others.

Octavious, if Jamiet didn't suspect a conspiracy of some sort, why would he post this specific article? Doctors' mistakes and negligence kill thousands every day.

@ZMaj - because he wanted to slaw the religious right-wing nut jobs? IT doesn't have to be a conspiracy to point out the flawed logic of letting a woman and her child die when the woman could be saved just because there was still a heartbeat and Ireland is a right-to-life Catholic country.

*slam not slaw... Weird typo that one

Because he likes to make topical posts and it happens to a British news story today, and abortion threads always seem popular here. He posted the Guardian article (instead of, say, a BBC or Telegraph article) because he's a bit of a lefty.

"But he said these requests were denied because a foetal heartbeat was still present and they were told at one point: "This is a Catholic country.""

"These requests were denied" and the (anonymous!) "Catholic" statement are put in the same sentence as if they were somehow related. If this is not conspiracy bullshit and anti-Catholic propaganda, I don't know what is.

Then you don't know what it is. Reasons (however bad) do not imply conspiracy, ZMaj. I think you need to review what a conspiracy is. They are a Catholic Country. They ban aboprtions after a heartbeat is present. Thats nbot a conspiracy, it's just a shitty law that needs to be overturned.

I would say that you don't know what is.

Making a general impassioned case based on a single instance, which is still being investigated, which is based on an article with anonymous and unverified statements, which may or may not be related to a law, which may or may not be related to Catholicism, is a conspiracy.

abortions are illegal in Ireland unless the mothers life is at risk, clearly the doctor didn't think this was the case.

That is all there is to it.

@ Zmaj: "I don't think we can assume a national level conspiracy to murder pregnant women."

Who said anything about a conspiracy? I certainly didn't! Please don't put words in my mouth. I do not think that the Irish government, or Irish doctors, are part of a deliberate conspiracy to maliciously murder pregnant women, nor did I suggest such a thing.

I posted this story because in my view, it shows that Ireland's extreme pro-life stance has damaging consequences. It's not simply an issue of medical negligence as you suggest. This woman's death may be an unintended consequence of Ireland's abortion law, but it is a consequence of that law nonetheless.

"It's not simply an issue of medical negligence as you suggest." Yes it is.

@ZMaj - "may or may not be related to a law" is bullshit. Anybody who knows how to use google can confirm it *is* related to a law. "Most articles have anonymous or unverified statements, that doesn't make it a conspiracy either. And the law in question *is* related to Catholicism, that is also easily verified using google. So all three of your points now debunked what is your next argument that this is somehow a theory that people behind the scens are doing things in secret (a conspiracy)? A conspiracy requires secrecy. 9/11 was a terrorist conspiracy. Iran-contra and Fast & Furious were government conspiracies. A law passed by government officials because the country in question is a Catholic country is not a conspiracy. And making an impassioned plea to have that law changed and using one specific instance (exactly what they do with class-action lawsuits in the states) is not a conspiracy theory. I suspect it's a language thing with you again that you don't realize exactly what the connotation and denotation of conspiracy is.

Why? Defend your position. I contend that Ireland's abortion law makes this kind of situation more likely. If you don't agree, explain yourself. Don't just say "Yes it is".

(sorry that was to Zmaj)

That person's death may or may not be related to that law. She may have died because of other reasons. You're assuming things.

The law in question is related to Christianity in general, wouldn't you agree?

"I suspect it's a language thing with you again..." Now that's just low.

@ Zmaj: "The law in question is related to Christianity in general, wouldn't you agree?"

I don't understand the relevance of this question. What do you mean?

Jamiet, that comment was meant for Draugnar, who claims it's related to Catholicism when it is actually an all-Christian movement. (heartbeatinternational.org)

"The law in question is related to Christianity in general, wouldn't you agree?"

Now you are assuming things. Not all of Christianity is against abortion or view life as having started at conception or when a heartbeat can be heard. So now *you* are assuming.

As far as Ireland being Catholic... It is. If it weren't, there would never have been all the issues and the IRA would never have been founded and on and on. Ireland is Catholic. That is not an assumption on my part. It is a globally recognized fact that Ireland has long been a Catholic country.

Now, there is an assumption that she would have lived had she had the abortion that the law denied. But that has plenty of backing.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/abortion-debate-flares-in-ireland-over-death-of-critically-ill-woman-denied-quick-termination/2012/11/14/4b53b4d4-2e52-11e2-b631-2aad9d9c73ac_story.html

"As far as Ireland being Catholic... It is. If it weren't, there would never have been all the issues and the IRA would never have been founded and on and on." Oh dear oh dear. I'm afraid I can't discuss this matter with you any more, Draugnar. You figure out why.

I have figured it out. It's because you just realized you were an idiot and that Ireland has been a Catholic stronghold for a very very long time and you don't want to lose facew any more than you alreayd have.

I was very annoyed when i heard this this morning.

Ireland may be a 'Catholic stronghold' but the irish population has twice voted on a constitutional change and rejected it both time.

In each case the government tried to restirct abortion further, as the constitution protects the health of the mother (not the life, which they wished to change it to)

The supreme court ruled (20 years ago) that the constitution required that women who are a suicide risk because of a pregnancy (and they are prevented from having an abortion) are entitled to abort on the basis of their health being at risk (depression is a mental health issue, and even if they are not taking their life, being at risk is damaging their health)

Thus the 'catholic' government tried to remove the protection on the health of mothers. And failed, TWICE. The people are not staunchly catholic, they are passively catholic, and use common sense instead of church dogma to determine what is right.

I'm not going to get into the issue of the IRA.

The government (for 20 years - 7 different governments infact) have not repealled the law regarding abortion, so it is still illegal under all circumstances, though this law is deemed unconstitutional by the supreme court.

No doctors have openly performed any abortions in ireland - they would likely be able to prove that the law was unconstitutional, but ireland being a small and corrupt place, there is no saying that they would ever be able to practice medicine in the country if they broke an unconstitutional law...

'Making a general impassioned case based on a single instance, which is still being investigated, which is based on an article with anonymous and unverified statements, which may or may not be related to a law, which may or may not be related to Catholicism, is a conspiracy.'

look up the definition of conspiracy.

The law IS based on catholic interpretation of moral and social good as described by the Irish government of the 1930s. The constitution is the same, however in 1992 it was interpreted as meaning something else, as meaning that a woman's health (including mental health) must be protected, and abortions may be carried out under certain vague and poorly defined circumstances.

It is this lack of clarity which allows Irish doctors to refuse to perform an abortion to avoid risking their careers.

It is also possible that in this case the Irish doctors refused to perform an abortion for personal religious reasons. Though I would have such an individual hung, drawn, and quartered for that kind of decision... (which is why i shouldn't be allowed to be dictator for life :)

"which is why i shouldn't be allowed to be dictator for life :) "

I plus 1 both posts, but this deserves a special plus infinity! :-D