What do you expect from a party of sore losers & terrorists. Can we outlaw the Republican Party yet?

Terrorists? Huh?

I have to ask "huh?" as well...

Sore losers and a great many--not all, but many--who are appallingly backward and cruel in their social views...

But it's not like they're blowing themselves up in town halls here, Putin.

terrorists? you must mean these guys:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Texas_(group)

Peaceful secession is an interesting idea, one I admit has crossed my mind before. If the people of a nation have two drastically different visions for how to order society, and there seems to be no reconcilliation possible between their visions, why not separate amicably before tensions get too high and a shooting war breaks out?

Leave it to Texas and Lousy-ana to be the first 2 states to get enough signatures for this -_-
makes me proud to be from a Texas family(sarcasm)... but seriously, they wouldn't last a year. maybe Texas, but the rest would be hopeless... My idiot of a cousin declared after the election that the "True Americans" should leave the union... my question for these "True Americans"... how is it American to abandon your country? the country that hundreds of thousands of men and women, possibly even your family members, have died to protect. these "Americans" don't deserve to be called as such, and will never be seen as such in my eyes again.

@butterhead - that's exactly what I'm talking about. If people don't see one another as being Americans, maybe the differences are irreconcilable. It sounds like you're pretty irreconcilable. Putin doesn't sound very reconcilable either, calling for the banning of a party that just received 49% of the popular vote in a presidential election.

I'm shocked, shocked, to find out that there are crazy people on the internet.

None of these are formal movements for secession at all, just requests to the White House website. It's not as if the internet isn't full of kooks who would jump all over any wacky idea like this. And is there even a way to prove that there are no duplicate signatures or that the people even come from the relevant states? During the campaign there was an under-reported story that the Obama campaign website did not have safeguards to prevent foreigners from donating money. It would be amazing if the dumb PR website was more secure than the campaign's.

But what this really is is obiwanobiwan's daily does of outrage.

Fine, go. Don't let the door hit your ass on the way out. I'd love to stop subsidizing those welfare queen red states and their outrageously shitty and atavistic worldview. Maybe if we didn't have to kowtow to the delicate sensibilities of the stupidest motherfuckers on this continent, we'd have decent health care and public education.

@Invictus- Texas has petitions numbering in the 75,000 range. Lousy-ana has at least 25,000. 20+ States have a petition of some sort or another. this isn't just "requests to the White House website".
@FlemGem- I have no problems with Republicans. My parents are Republicans. My best friend is Republican. my GF is Republican. my issue is not with Republicans, or any other American who voted, or anything of the such. my issue is with those who want to LEAVE the United States of AMERICA. How can someone who wants to no longer be part of the US of AMERICA be considered an AMERICAN?

@Invictus- Incomplete thought in my last post to you... As I was saying: I know most of these petitions(states like Oregon and such) hold no water and will fall rapidly. but some of these places, like Texas, Lousy-ana, Alabama, etc. are actually serious.

"this isn't just "requests to the White House website"."

You haven't understood the nature of what's going on, which is understandable. The sensational is more compelling, after all, and that's how it's being presented.

These "petitions" are just a way of getting in contact with some low-level aide at the White House. If there's a certain amount of support then it gets a response. These secession petitions have no legal standing at all, they are just a way of bothering the real-life analog of that blonde girl from the West Wing. There is NOTHING from any state government asking for secession.

And as for the numbers, how can we know how many are duplicates? How can we know they're really from those states and not just some frustrated Vermonter standing in nutjob solidarity? This is a bubblegum story not worth thinking twice about.

"but some of these places, like Texas, Lousy-ana, Alabama, etc. are actually serious."

No, they're not. It's a meaningless online petition signed by internet loons. You might as well say the scores of Facebook groups that threaten to boycott the website whenever there's a major format change are actually serious.

"But what this really is is obiwanobiwan's daily does of outrage."

Oh, give me a goddamn break, Invictus.

What, would you like my threads to be happier all the time?

Sometimes they're fun, NFL PICK 'EM or Literature threads, sometimes they're pointing out stupidity such as this.

AGAIN, if you dislike my threads, WHY bother coming on just to piss on me?

If you're going to actually dialogue, fine, Putin does that, and he and I rarely agree...the last couple threads, you've just seemingly come along to complain that I'm discussing something at all...if "complaining" on the Internet is pathetic, how pathetic is complaining in a thread of complaining said complainer IS complaining?

"Peaceful secession is an interesting idea, one I admit has crossed my mind before. If the people of a nation have two drastically different visions for how to order society, and there seems to be no reconcilliation possible between their visions, why not separate amicably before tensions get too high and a shooting war breaks out?"

In short--
We're stronger as 50 states,
The Northeast and Pacific Coast suffered through the Bush years, somehow, without leaving,
This is just pedantic whining on the part of allegedly-tough Texans because their candidate lost.

Really, if people seceded every time their candidate lost...how fractured would the US AND UK, for that matter, be?

They seemed to be just fine with being proud Americans in 2000 when a Texan was elected to the White House...suddenly, a black Democrat president wins two terms and they start crying for secession. PLEASE.

"My idiot of a cousin declared after the election that the "True Americans" should leave the union... my question for these "True Americans"... how is it American to abandon your country?"

EXACTLY. :)

"I'd love to stop subsidizing those welfare queen red states and their outrageously shitty and atavistic worldview. Maybe if we didn't have to kowtow to the delicate sensibilities of the stupidest motherfuckers on this continent, we'd have decent health care and public education."

Also...EXACTLY. :)

"No, they're not. It's a meaningless online petition signed by internet loons."

80,000 morons are...well, still morons, but a substantial enough batch of morons to do something, well, sufficiently moronic and destructive...

Which we folks with functioning cerebral cortexes would prefer not to see.

80,000 people is one about NFL stadium. Hardly a huge amount of people.

@Invictus- Even if they are just trying to "get in contact"... the fact that the state of Texas alone has enough names to warrant a response is sickening. truly sicking. I do hope you are right. I do hope this ends up being nothing, and it blows over in a few weeks time. but the fact of the matter is that there are at LEAST 100k plus people(yes some may be duplicates, but to have 100k in 2 states alone, not to mention the thousands in other states, one must assume most aren't duplicates) have done this. 100k people have betrayed their country. 100k people. it's disturbing. it's sad. it is shameful to our great nation.

It's not the state of Texas. It's one petition one the White House website that meets the website's own arbitrary criteria for a response.

This story is nonsense. It exists just so that there's buzz exactly like what's happening here and people go back to these websites to see how things are progressing on this non-issue. You fell for the media trap. Congrats.

"80,000 people is one about NFL stadium. Hardly a huge amount of people."

80,000 people with guns aiming to secede or hurt others is a large enough amount.
40,000 people with guns aiming to secede or hurt others is a large enough amount.
20,000 people with guns aiming to secede or hurt others is a large enough amount.
10,000 people with guns aiming to secede or hurt others is a large enough amount.

And so on.

What a stunning leap of logic. Who mentioned guns?

I wouldn't mind starting back up the Confederacy, just saying.

Tennessee... Georgia... Florida... Alabama. those 4 all have enough votes to warrant a response. that's 100k. Texas is at 92k itself. we are at almost 200k already, and we haven't even counted Lousy-ana or the states that have between 5-24k... Lousy is another 32k... we just hit over 225k... that's more than "one NFL stadium"

If you need a better example of clicktivism, look no further.

And do you know what the White House's response to these things will be? Texas v White. End of story.

The outrage fascinates me. I'm actually a little surprised by it. How many of you (aside from Putin) cried over the secession of the member states of the Soviet Union? Or the fission of Slovakia and the Czech Republic? Or how about... the secession of the Thirteen Colonies from Britain?

Lots of people in this country feel like they're in a bad marriage to a government that doesn't love them, treats them poorly, and in some cases is actually very abusive. How many of you would say that a woman in an abusive relationship has no right to leave? Yet citizens of an abusive government apparently must stay. I would be interested to know from all of you who call these secessionists "kooks" and "sore losers" under what circumstances (if any) you would be sympathetic to their cause.

they actually didn't mention guns, it specifically said peacefully.

And only Obi would make a big deal (or any deal) out of this. This is a non story. We all know that non-stories are what obi loves though.

He lacks the ability to filter this sort of information. Incidentally that filter is also known as "intelligence."

@Tolstoy

I'm sympathetic to their cause now. If we can get rid of the national dead weight that is the former CSA, I'm all in favor of it. I'd give them two generations before they'd beg us to let them back into the Union.

how about 2 months

"What a stunning leap of logic. Who mentioned guns?"

Unfair supposition or not...it IS Texas...

They'd probably be the first to agree guns come to mind when you think of their state in some capacity, they're a very pro-gun state.

(WHICH IS NOT TO HATE ON GUNS, NO ONE TAKES THIS AS SUCH...I am merely saying that 80,000 Texans angling on seceding, chances are a good many have guns, and if they're that passionate about seceding and have guns, that can be a sticky situation...probably won't be, as, well, their economy would hit the skids whether they'd like to admit it or not, but still, any mass of people with guns that aren't paintball guns, probably a bad idea, is all I'm saying.)

"As of Tuesday evening, the petition -- which asks for the PEACEFUL withdrawal of the state of Texas from the union -- had racked up more than 81,000 signatures. (Only 25,000 are needed to elicit an official response from the Obama administration.)"

Hey dipshit, what about 'peaceful' brings guns to mind.

The fact that people often profess peace...

That doesn't guarantee anything.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z8P3iHw6wHM

It's one judge, sure, but it's indicative of a growing and not-altogether-nice movement (or perhaps counter-movement) against people like Obama and his base and what they represent, not so much politically, I think, so much as socially.

Also, again--

You'll forgive me for worrying about guns in what is arguably the most gun-toting (and proud of it) state in the whole Union.

Anyway, I have two papers to write, so I'll pick this up tomorrow, unless it's died.

Also, I must point out again that I don't call YOU names...

Criticize my views, but do so with more class and maturity than your average 11-year old.

Otherwise, I'm forced to view you and any attempt at a point you make as being on par with one.

I'll respect them when they deserve respect. This is one of the many times they don't. and others seem to agree.

This is a hilarious non-issue. Show of hands, who's actually residing in Texas or Louisiana?

Well, I am, so allow me to fill the clueless dingbats in: Louisiana has 4.5M people. Texas has 25.6M people. The 81K signatures that Texas has amounts to one quarter of one percent of the population of Texas, and that's assuming that all of the signatures are from Texas. Pro tip: It's an online petition, of course they aren't all from Texas. Louisiana's petition hit 25K, which is half of one percent of the population of Louisiana, again assuming falsely that all the signatures are from Louisiana (they aren't).

And *no one* takes the talk of secession seriously around here. Nobody. Walk around on the streets of Baton Rouge and ask random people if they support seceding from the USA and you're going to find no one seriously supporting it. In fact, you'll probably get trolled to hell by the people here who recognize you for the completely out-of-touch, clueless fool you are; they'll put on an exaggerated Southern accent and act like they seriously support it, because you're clueless, and they know you'd get all your feathers in a ruffle, and they'd get their laughs and call it a day.

There have been some non-starter threads on this site before, but this honestly might be the biggest one I can remember that took itself seriously. No one wants to secede around here. Stop getting played the fool and get a clue.

(If they wanted to secede, then there's a discussion to be had, because I think Tolstoy is right - if the people really aren't getting the governance they should, then they have a right to leave the Union. I'm not arguing that's the case here, in fact I think it would be silly to secede, but if that were the case then there's a discussion to be had. But it's moot, because it's not the case, because this is just some people overreacting to losing an election who aren't at all representative of the states on whose behalf they pretend to speak.)

Again for you dreamers out there. The states didn't create the Union. The people created the union. The states cannot individually dissolve the union. The people need to dissolve the Union. There is no discussion.

[thucy signed the petition]

Well considering the people created the state and appointed its representative to serve them, arguably the state *is* the people and, short of a revolution, the state has to be involved in any attempt to leave the union. It is the United *States* of America, not the United *People* of America.

"The outrage fascinates me. I'm actually a little surprised by it. How many of you (aside from Putin) cried over the secession of the member states of the Soviet Union? Or the fission of Slovakia and the Czech Republic? Or how about... the secession of the Thirteen Colonies from Britain?"

This is a supposedly a grassroots initiative. Soviet Union was dissolved from the top (although the actual deed was an acknowledgement of a fait accompli, the Baltics etc seceded because their politicians decided to) despite the popular resistance to the move, especially in the Asian republics. Czechoslovakia was also dissolved from the top without the separation being much of a campaign issue. I wonder how many Americans would be so nonchalant if the states decided tomorrow to call it day and leave the USA behind.

"Well considering the people created the state and appointed its representative to serve them, arguably the state *is* the people and, short of a revolution, the state has to be involved in any attempt to leave the union. It is the United *States* of America, not the United *People* of America."

Perhaps if the Representatives had the power to emplace the constitution, that would be a valid argument. But the did not. The Constitution is NOT given force by elected state representatives. The Constitution was given power of law by the ratifying conventions, the representatives of the people, not the States. The ratifying conventions and therefore the people lent force to the constitution under which the States are unified. The Unites *States* of America is united by the will of the *People*, not the will of the States.

So in short, you and who ever agreed with you are wrong.

States can secede but t would have to be the will of the American people through an amendment to the Constitution.

And yes, in case you were wondering, this is EXACTLY what Madison intended when he masterminded the constitution. For all the compromises he made, the ratification process and the unifying force that gave the Union was essential to him. He vehemently resisted calls for the constitution to be ratified by the state legislatures and insisted on ratifying conventions. It elevated the new constitution above the reach of the individual states. It made the union strong and addressed the state-centric flaws of the Articles of Confederation.

"We the PEOPLE of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union... do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America"

There's definitely an argument to be made that the people (not government) of a state could secede. Certainly (contrary to oft-cited conservative opinion) this is not what the founders had in mind (SC is correct), but it's not clear the founders' position was all that consistent / coherent. There are strong arguments both ways, imo.

Whatever the case, I think this is one of those situations where legal realism rules the day, more or less as it should. If some state decides in the future to secede, the case is not going to be determined by fine-point arguments about the Constitution. The feds will say it's illegal, the state will say it isn't, and the winner will be determined by who has the most political or (God forbid) military leverage at the time.

This is more or less as it was at the revolution itself. The colonial case for independence was ambiguous to say the least; it won because they won, not because anybody was convinced.